Refitting the '97 SSE...undergoing tests 10-18

[sandrock]

I've decided the SSE is going to be kept until the wheels fall off of it, which means for a good long while. I like its performance, but I want something more. I want to make it....FUN. But no supercharging...I want to run 87 all day long. So I am making plans to swap in an S3, similar in specs to Dons new motor for the van, cam and all. But I'm also going to swap in....a 4T65. I want a 3.29 ratio trans, and I can find one rather easily. Now then, here are my questions in regards to that...

1) Will my current axles for the -60E, 3.06 ratio fit the new trans?

2) Does anybody know if the 1997 L36 bin file will operate the 4T65? Conversely, would the L67 bin file operate an L36? I know either way there will have to be some tweaking to the programs.

3) If question #2 has no good solution, in order for this to work, I'll have to go to a 1998 PCM. Knowing what I know about PCM swaps...this one in particular...can anyone shoot me a diagram of the firewall connection for 1998 or 1999?

4) The trans I am looking into is from an '04 Monte Carlo, 3800, 3.29 ratio...same trans as the 9C1 Impalas, so it will have all the updates recommended for the -65. I am going to assume the older PCMs mentioned above will operate it....however if someone knows for certain, I'd like to know before I drop a few bucks.

TIA!

[BonneMe]

You can tune a supercharged motor for 87... Even still, running 91 on a lightly modded L67 will be better cost/mile than an L36 usually. Why the 87 only stipulation?

[sandrock]

Its more of a personal stipulation than anything. I already have to put premium in the SS. Plus, with the way the heat is here in FLorida, going supercharged would almost certainly mean I'd have to drop timing to avoid KR. Besides, tuning with a 'charger is a pain. If I got a good deal on a supercharged motor, I'd go for it. But the S3 is way cheaper.

[Oldsman105]

Might want to read this before you buy that 04 trans.


http://www.tripleedgeperformance.com/Th ... using.html

[sandrock]

Thanks for that link...I knew there were a lot of changes, but I didn't know about the PCM changes made to accomodate the trans changes. I read further and it seems the -65 really isn't the better transmission afterall.

I'll stick with a 60 thank you very much, but I still want that lower gear ratio.

So, since I won't be getting another trans, that frees up some money to go into the engine. Does anyone have any experience with that intake insert?

[Oldsman105]

Just curious.

Would you be able to stick a HD Diff, output shaft and Diff cover in you 4T60? I think I read somewhere about someone doing it and got 3.33 FDR.

[sandrock]

Not too sure. '97s are an odd bunch. I can put any gear ratio I want in it...BUT that's if I want to tear it apart and change the ring gear...something I'm not keen on doing. The trick is to find a 3.33 that is compatible with my ring gear, both in direction cut and in mesh. Don and I were thinking the 3400 4T60 in the early Montanas might do the trick, but we gotta find one in a yard and tear it down before we can be for certain.

[sandrock]

*Blows the dust off*

I've decided to keep the car. My reasoning is I can dump less than 2 grand into this car, and keep it until the wheels fall off, easier than I can get rid of the car, put 2 grand down, and STILL make payments on something that I doubt will be custom enough to suit my tastes. Besides, the SSE is in very good shape...just a little bit worn.

But THAT'S about to change.

First off...let's run through all the things that have already been replaced on this car.

1) All the wheel bearings
2) Battery
3) Stereo
4) Upper intake (and LIM porting)
5) Oil pan (Went to the aluminum style, along with the filter adapter to make it so)
6) Radiator (Went to the S1 L67 radiator)
7) Rear struts (Jinx's old Gabriel Blues, and they still work outstandingly well)
8) Front brakes (rotors and pads)
9) Muffler (Magnaflow now)
10) Poly end links
11) New tie rods (both inner and outer)
12) Oil pressure sender
And probably a few other things

Not to mention the actual mods, like the PLIM, the 99+ TB, the tuning.

Don't get me wrong, it runs very well for what it is. But no matter how much work goes into it, it's STILL a 140k motor that wasn't maintained before I got a hold of it. The two worst enemies that motor has right now are time, and the pretty leaky rear main oil seal, which can only be replaced by engine removal (or trans removal. Either way, something's gotta go). Since I NEED something that will get me back and forth to Orlando and be reliable, I thought it over. It's time for an upgrade. Or three.

Shopped around. Found an '08 Lucerne Series III motor with...get this...ZERO miles (Dealer total loss I think) for 350.00. Upgrade 1.

I really like how the '06 Grand Prix shifts. So I'm going with a 4T65-E with the 3.05 ratio from an '04 Impala, and possibly make it a 3.29. Not sure yet. Price? 175.00. Yes, I'll go through it, pop the pan off and see if any carnage exists. While I'm there, a shift kit will find its way in. Upgrade 2.

Now, to control all that. I know from all my experiments that the 1997 PCM can't control this combo. Effectively, I can only use an 04-05 Bonneville PCM, or an 04-05 MonteImpala PCM, since those PCMs have the new strategies for the transmission AND they do NOT include drive-by-wire. PCM will be about 60 bucks, plus 100-200 for tuning said PCM. Upgrade 3

So that's the new plan. Funds have been approved through household litigation (and provided I get rid of much useless stuff in the garage), basics will be bought this week. I'm basically going to build up a new subframe for it, replacing all the bushings, painting, and whatnot. Might throw in a new rack while I'm at it. Once the subframe is done and the engine/trans is mounted, I can do the swap in about two days.

Fun times ahead

[wjcollier07]

*dang*..came so close to getting rid of it, and now keeping it until the wheels fall off again!

Good to see some forward movement with it though...can't wait to see what you end up doing to it. You usually come up with some pretty revolutionary upgrades.

[LeSabre in Buffalo]

Good to hear!

How far along will this be in a few months?

[sandrock]

I'll try like hell to have it done by SEBF. If anything, the new powertrain will be ready to install by that time.

New Gabriel struts are on the way, and I already have new poly swaybar bushings and endlinks, as well as new motor mounts for it. Just never installed them, but they will find their way in soon enough.

One other thing I need to do is to modify the engine harness. And I will need a 4T65 harness specific to the trans I get.

[LeSabre in Buffalo]

Wow! That'll be a very nice car by the time you're done.

[LeSabreUltra]

Yup, it'll be a keeper for sure.
.
.
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[sandrock]

OUCH.

Well, I didn't get what was on the website at all. What I did get cost a little bit more (100 bucks more, plus the cores), but well worth it.

Engine: 2007 Buick Lucerne with 2,000 miles on it. Comes without the flywheel and any accessories. No water pump either. But it DOES have the aluminum upper (which I won't be using), the DBW TB (again, won't be using), the injectors (which I will most definately use), AND...the entire engine harness. Now, that's important because 1) Now I don't have to go to a junkyard or rely on anyone on the club to find me a trans harness. I can use this one, and just build a new patch harness. 2) It allows me to *possibly* consider going to DBW.

Transmission: 2004 Pontiac GP 3.05 ratio. 62k on it, but it should be fine to use. Again, pan popping and a shift kit will be installed.

Still have to locate a new computer to run all of this, and I am considering the DBW setup now that I have the harness. IF I go DBW, I'll buy a PCM from a 2006 GP, since I can buy the full MY spread through HPT and get full use of them. Gotta think about it.

[sandrock]

NOT GOING DBW. Too much involved after looking at what Ryan at Sinister did with a Fiero and LS4. So that pretty much leaves that new harness I'm getting with that motor useless to me, aside from the trans connector.

Going over all the harness options open to me. I can either reuse my '97 harness and repin the entire PCM connectors, or go to a '98-99 harness and repin the firewall connector. It's much easier to take the pins in and out of the PCM side than it is the firewall side, so I'm going that route. This leaves other issues though, the largest of which is that the 98-up PCMs use seperate sensor returns for the MAP, ECT, IAT, A/C head pressure, and EGR. 96-97 PCMs combined those returns, so I have to add 5 wires to the '97 harness after I repin what I have. Then, add in the 4T65 harness (which for all intents and purposes will be seperate from the main body).

For PCM I have settled on the Impala/Monte Carlo 2005 MY variety. There seems to be quite a bit of out-of-the-box tunes available for that platform and I should be able to find one that will suit me fine. I also would like to try to integrate the overhead DIC they have for mpg, distance to empty, and all that other jazz, when I do my headliner. Not too sure on that one yet though.

[Jrs3800]

we went and picked up Sandrocks motor yesterday... The motor doesn't even look like its been ran.. Might just as well call it a Crate Motor..lol... Got a good look at the trans and it too appears to be in good shape..

So The Upgrade begins

[sandrock]

Been bouncing between clubs trying to figure out answers to questions I have. Answers I am getting are sketchy, but they do prepare me for "what-ifs" that crop up.

Biggest issue I am facing is whether or not the 2005 PCM will work, as it is PK3 and is a slightly different animal than the old '97 PCM it's replacing. It is known that this PCM can have it's anti-theft stuff disabled. It ISN'T immediately known if this PCM can function without a BCM though. (Actually, the PCM itself can. It's the calibration that's the issue. It's from a 2005 Impala). I am going on the assumption that it can, but I don't feel like wasting credits on a calibration I can't use, so I need to find someone that can disable just the theft tables and codes for now.

Other than that, I gotta find axles too. And a flywheel. I'll be reusing the alternator and accessory bracket from the what I have now. Power steering pump too since it was new when I bought the car.

[Cheetah]

You have your hands full, but it soundls like fun!

[sandrock]

Been pretty busy with the refit. Here's the skinny...

I popped off the aluminum upper so I could replace it with the composite one...here's what I found...







Believe it or not, these ports are pretty good. Very slight ridge in the pathway, and nowhere near bad enough to warrant popping off the LIM yet. Right now, the engine and transmission are mated, plastic upper, TB, and fuel rail are mounted, and the alternator is mounted. New trans mount is mounted, and the neutral safety switch is on.

On the PCM side of things, the '97 SSE harness has been modified to accept the '05 PCM. I finished that up today at work (well, functional anyways. I have to retape and reloom it), and a few hours ago I mounted it back to the car, put the PCM on it, and turned the key. First indication things were good was the fuel gage...since it goes through the PCM, I knew it was getting power. So I threw on the HP Tuner, and what do you know...it saw the PCM! So, I read it, and after that I went to the scanner to do some manual tests...clicking relays and whatnot...everything worked.

So, that's where I stand right now. I'll take more pics of what I have going on later

[00Beast]

Coolness, Brad. This is getting a cam, isn't it?