Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Series I L27 (1992-1994 SE,SLE, SSE) & Series II L36 (1995-1999 SE, SSE, SLE) and common problems for the Series I and II L67 (all supercharged models 92-99) Including Olds 88's, Olds LSS's, Olds 98 91-96, Buick Lesabres and Park Avenue 91-96. Please use General Chat for non-mechanical issues, and Performance and Brainstorming for improvements.
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zuper8
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Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by zuper8 »

The subframe completely let go on the rear passenger side of my 92 SE. The car has about 228K now. What should I do: new mounts, new subframe, or new car? Am I correct in thinking the subframe rusted around the mount, and that's why it fell off? Could I have done anything to prevent this? We are pretty sad to think about losing the car.

EDIT: I should mention, this was discovered when the car was in for an alignment. I haven't been under it in a while because my doctor told me I have to stop working on cars (yeah right, I'm just taking a break). The tech said he tried to tighten up the bolts for me but they were just spinning. So I guess where they thread into the body is rotted out, based on what he told me. I am so shocked, the underside of the car was quite clean for its age.

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YIKES

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- Rachael
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Re: Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by Jrs3800 »

Rachael, is it the bolt head and washer that let go? Doesn't look like the body is rusted in that area..
Can you get the bolt/s out?
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Re: Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by zuper8 »

Whoaaa no I can not move the bolts, they are in there good! At least too good for my ratchet and arms... what I understood from the firestone guys was that they tried to zip the bolts back in with the impact, but they would just spin. I dunno how they got them to spin, they are stuck to me.

I did look at my diagram from the 92 FSM, and felt around the bolt, and there did not seem to be a washer or bushing there, just the bolt and this floppy rubber shell. Is it possible I am just missing some parts? lol

Would it help if I got a pic looking directly up at the bolt head?
- Rachael
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Re: Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by 95naSTA »

zuper8 wrote:I did look at my diagram from the 92 FSM, and felt around the bolt, and there did not seem to be a washer or bushing there, just the bolt and this floppy rubber shell. Is it possible I am just missing some parts? lol
That's what I'm thinking. Often times the bottom washer rusts out and falls off. Without those, there's nothing hold the bushing and subframe up.
zuper8 wrote:Would it help if I got a pic looking directly up at the bolt head?
Yeah if you can.
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Re: Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by zuper8 »

looks like one washer definitely left, and the other appears to be there, maybe on that one the body rusted. Wonder if it would be safe if I just fixed the outer one and did the driver's side mounts while I was at it? perhaps that would be enough?

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I haven't been able to really look under there because we have had so much snow. you are right!! HOORAY the car doesn't have to die! I found the dorman kit for the subframe bushings, like $50 a set and maybe Bill (pretty please) will let me go over to his house so I can use his impacts/ torch for removing the bolts :)

seriously, the alignment tech came out and told us that he won't charge us for putting the car on the rack, and that we should just move on from this car because it would cost more than the car was worth in body work to fix it. He said they would have to weld new metal into the body. Why did I believe him? I am so gullible.... I should know better, I have seen Bonneville subframe bushings a bunch of times but never really knew how they were put together. Once I looked at the diagram I was like.... waaaaait a minute. there are some things missing.
- Rachael
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Re: Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by crash93ssei »

Honestly the tech might have screwed you by using an impact on those bolts. When I swapped the engine / trans / subframe in my old '93 SSEi it seems like the specs only call for like 65 ft lbs or something like that for those bolts. If they were using an impact and they were just spinning they may have broke the captive nut loose or stripped it.
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Re: Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by zuper8 »

wow only 65 ft-lbs? yeah hopefully they didn't break them... I can't spin the outer one with my ratchet, I should try the inner when Mark comes home and see what happens.
- Rachael
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Re: Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by Jrs3800 »

You may need an access hole to get to those captive nuts in there, this could become a lot of fun.. But the body does not look rusted at all... The bolt may be rusted to the nut tho.. either way its going to be fun..
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Re: Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by zuper8 »

yikes, hope I can do this.... would be a shame to lose the car over this if the body isn't bad, but none of my hand tool collection is going to help me here I can tell.
- Rachael
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Re: Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by MattStrike »

Hey, if there is no body rust, it's worth buying an angle grinder and some cutoff wheels to gain access to the rear-most retainer. ( $70 max)

You might be able to get the bolts off with an impact yet. Without the bottom washers on those bushings, I can see how those bolts would just keep spinning and the retainer not be damaged. But, the subframe metal may need some welding or a similar repair that I did with hockey pucks to be a proper joint. The joint has to resist movement in all three directions of 'translation' via the rubber bushing (up/down, left/right, fore/aft).

This is similar to how they work, you're missing the bottom two parts:
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The 'hole' in the subframe is a specific shape that matches the bushing (in the mushroom shaped rubber piece there is a metal ring on the narrow part that distributes the load from the subframe). In the pictures you posted, it looks like the metal ring on the bushing rusted to the subframe, and the bottom washer fell out so the bottom mushroom shaped bushing fell out too. That bottom washer also has a center part that is what the bolt tightens against. It sets up the bushing compression, it's like a 1in spacer that gets sandwiched between the washer and the car frame. FWIW, if that spacer piece isn't rusted out you can put over 150ft*lbs on that bolt and the retainer won't spin. It's an M14 bolt, grade 9.8, should handle 200+ ft/lbs no sweat. If that spacer piece is rusty it will fold under the clamp force an allow it to continue to 'spin' as it deforms.



*personal opinion, sorry* your mechanic is a retard, unless you trust them don't go back. This should have been something that is simple to diagnose and tell you what is needed to fix.
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Re: Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by wjcollier07 »

There is a relatively fragile cage nut sitting inside the hole there that has, by your description, broken away from the stamped body it's held in by (which is what happens when you hit it with an impact and it's rusted in place) Basically, your bushing support/washer rusted through (they're hardly prepped for corrosion protection). Your situation as it stands looks GOOD. Hardly any body rust to speak of.

Your plan of action should involve sourcing a new bolt, washer, and bushings. You can get the bolt and washer from GM, and if you'd like to upgrade your bushings, you can use the Energy Suspension polyurethane frame bushings designed for the GMT325 (S10, Blazer) platform while you're there. If you're keeping the car for a while, and not doing a patch job, I'd HIGHLY recommend sourcing 6 new support washers to go with those new bushings, because I'd bet they're all pretty rusty.

As far as removing what's there...it's not exactly EASY to get that cage nut out of the way for a new nut and washer to go in as it's still going to be held in by the mangled metal that's letting it spin freely.

My attempt of a solution would be to whack upward on that bolt until the nut breaks out of the cage, then you can cut the bolt in half with a cutting wheel/grinder and pull the remaining bolt and nut out through the access hole.

The other thing is, if the inner rear bolts start spinning (the ones without the access hole), you'll need to cut an access hole in the body to get the bits out, and then re-install from there.

I did this whole operation on my 96 PAU, and I have some pictures for guidance if I can be of any help. But I wouldn't worry, considering how bad it could be, you're in good shape there.

I was going to look for my pictures, but the pictures of Peter's 92 SSEi unibody repair shows a lot more angles of exactly what you're looking at.

http://s15.photobucket.com/user/peterg2 ... t=3&page=1

If I can find mine, I'll post those too, since it shows the un-rusted cage nut you're probably dealing with.
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Re: Subframe dropping, 92 SE

Post by zuper8 »

thank you thank you thank you guys!! very helpful and now I understand the situation so much better. The photos helped reinforce my understand of the diagram, visuals are critical for me. Looks like I will round up some subframe parts and arrange to borrow a garage space. and be prepared to fight!
- Rachael
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