Working on the car, need some advice (Update with pictures)

[Turbosax2005]

I've been around browsing the forums for awhile, trying to get the work back the LeSabre up to 100%, especially since in a few months it is going to become my dad's car, and I have ran into a big snag.

I have the trunk torn apart to replace the fuel level sensor, I followed the how to guide by Hans, and I cannot get the retaining ring off of the tank. The ring and the tongs that the ring locks into are severely rusted, and appear to have rusted together. I have sprayed WD-40 all over the ring and let it sit a couple hours, and so far, no luck.

So I am at a crossroads here, I'm going to go ahead and re-soak the ring with WD-40 and let it sit a week or so, and try again. I can also keep going today, running the risk of snapping the tongs off, which as far as i can tell, means the tank is then ruined and has to be replaced.

Obviously it is worth a shot, especially since changing the tank will be either a) very $$$$, or b) a giant pain in the ass. Has anyone had to go as far as changing the tank? If so, how hard was it to do in a driveway with jack-stands and hand tools?

[MattStrike]

If things are that rusty it might be a good idea to just replace them.
50/50 mix of trans fluid and acetone (hardware store - paint department usually) will work a lot better than WD-40.

[Turbosax2005]

Well, I had lucked out, I walked away, tried it one last time and the ring came off.

Now I am stuck getting the assembly out of the tank. I have been messing with it for almost 30 minutes and nada. It seems like the assembly is just a little larger than the access hole... I know if it's put together by man or machine, it should be able to come apart. Since it is relatively cool today, that could be affecting the tank? The cooler air making the hole shrink just enough to make life difficult?

[gonzo4191]

No it will come out usually have to make it almost parallel to the bottom sock out with float and strainer

[Turbosax2005]

Well after another hour or 2 of trying to get it out last night, including help from my father, it was a bust. will have to try again another day. He is a mechanical engineer who for the longest time did most of his own maintenance on cars, so him and I both know how to, and don't mind turning a wrench or two to work on a car.

gonzo: What is happening is the float that contains the pump and fuel level sensor itself is not clearing the access hole, the hole itself appears to be 1 or 2 mm smaller then the float, I had tried pulling it straight out, and no matter what I did it got caught on the ring, I tried to rotate it out on an angle, and it would get stuck to the point where I felt if I tried any harder, I was going to break the whole assembly.

I have a hard time believing that the unit was built under such tight tolerances, so that a 45-50 degree day would make it dang near impossible to do, but after spending the better part of 4 hours trying to get the retaining ring off, due to rust, then another 2.5-3 hours just trying to get the stupid pump out, I am out of thoughts to why it would not come out, except that the tank was cold enough to constrict just enough to make the pump not come out. I am just going to have to wait until I get a weekend where the temperature is back in the 70s/80s and try it again, I don't think I have any other real options here, other than paying a shop to do, which defeats why I was trying to do it myself in the first place.

[Wes]

Both the tank, and sending unit would be affected by the ambient temperature. So if tank shrinks, the sender will as well. The difference between 50, and 70 is rather insignificant in the expansion of most metals. I think what you are fighting more is the swelling associated with the rust.

[00Beast]

It's always a tight fit. You just gotta use a little more force than it seems it should need...

Plain WD-40 is not a penetrating oil. I think that's the biggest mistake many people make. Deep Creep, the new WD-40 Specialist Penetrant and PB blaster are all true penetrants. Or as MattStrike said, make your own mix with 50/50 ATF and Acetone in a spray bottle.

[crash93ssei]

I have pulled a few that were quite tight to remove, sometimes they are easy and other times they are very tight and a major pain. Just a matter of finding the sweet spot to let it slip out. The tanks are plastic so they might be effected more by the ambient temperature.

[Wes]

I've only done pumps on the 92-99, which were steel. I sometimes forget the differences in the newer models. I personally wouldn't think 50 degree weather is the major factor though. Ryan, you used to work with plastic everyday. Not sure how much cups compare to the plastic a tank is made out of, but, do you think 20-30 degrees would shrink the tank enough to prevent removal?

I would also agree with using something better than wd-40. Don't give up man, you are this far, almost there!

[crash93ssei]

I don't do plastic anymore, started a different job back in September. I believe the tanks are polyethylene though, 30 degrees or so might be enough to make the difference, but I am not really sure. I would be more inclined to believe it is more of a swelling issue from the sending unit being submerged in fuel for years over a difference in ambient temperature.

[clm2112]

Well after another hour or 2 of trying to get it out last night, including help from my father, it was a bust. will have to try again another day.

Patience and try it again. It has to be a tight fit to get the pickup all the way down to the bottom and back and still have a float with enough travel to make it mostly to the top of the tank, plus iirc there are baffles in there to keep the fuel from sloshing away from the pickup. Seriously, the sender assembly went into the fuel tank as one piece, it will come out through the hole as one piece.

[Turbosax2005]

Well I had started working on the car around 11 am on Friday, and finally through in the towel around 6:30-7 pm that night, I would have tried again Saturday, but I had plans to go up to the Sandusky area to visit my girlfriend and her parents. That and waking up Saturday almost every inch of my body was hurting from being in the trunk of the LeSabre most of the day.

So I think I had more then enough patience with the car, now granted it was around 4 when I finally got the retaining ring off and started working on my failed attempt to get the fuel pump assembly out. I have a very good understanding that if something is made by man, or machine in the case of most cars on the road, it can be disassembled. I do understand that things have to be tight for a reason, but there is an extremely fine line between a tight fit and no fit. This was what I was trying to do to remove the assembly:

When I was trying to get it to come out I would start it through the hole with the pump assembly on an angle, trying to get the float started through the access hole in hopes it would come out easier at that point. But it would get hung up and when I would try to move it, I could hear the plastic creaking, but it would not move. I would let it go, and it would stay right where it was wedged, I tried to pull on it some more, no success just a lot more creaking from the plastic itself as well as the metal rods that the float goes up and down on; so out of fear of breaking the assembly and being royally screwed, I lightly pushed on the assembly and it popped back into the tank. Pretty much rinse and repeat at least a couple dozen times. I had even put the assembly back down flush, hoping it would be straight up and down, and tried to pull it out that way, and it would catch the access hole, so going at an angle was about the only way I had any luck in at least getting a small section of the float out of the tank. Next time I try to do the sensor, I will take pictures and post them if I have more problems.

Just so it is known, this is NOT the first time I have worked on a car, I had done almost all my own work when I had my 95 Ford Taurus, as well as the Ford Escort before it, and I have done a lot of work on the LeSabre as well. I learned most of my tricks from my father, who did almost all his own work on cars back in the day and now still does some work on his own cars rather than paying a mechanic or dealer to do it for him. So I do know how to turn a wrench or two.

I know some of you guys remember me, even though I do not post too often, I used to be in the Chat a lot, but also mainly because my computer likes to forget my login info even with everything checked to remember it, so I would just hop on as a guest and browse through everything. Not trying to act all defensive or anything, I'm just glad to get any help that you guys have to offer and I do appreciate it. Sorry for the uber long post, I feel the more info I share, the better advice I can get back in hopes to get the car fixed and fixed right.

[crash93ssei]

It won't come out at an angle, has to come straight out. Tip it a little to get it started then wiggle it around to get the rest started.

I do remember the name from chat I think

[Turbosax2005]

That was what I had meant, the only way I could even get it to start was get it on an angle, from there whenever I had wiggled it it wouldn't come up any farther, at a point it would get so stuck that it would hold itself out of the tank.

Big Update with pictures below...

This was a long weekend, I was supposed to help my dad do the rear brakes on his 06 Rendezvous, but I ended up doing the entire job myself, while he was the gopher for me. Today, I spent another 2-3 hours working on the LeSabre trying to remove the fuel pump assembly, and the dang thing is not coming out! I have tried pulling it straight out, I have tried wiggling it, I have tried wedging a small putty knife between the pump assembly and the access hole to help pop the assembly out, all to no avail. I have pictures below to show exactly how this thing is getting stuck, and when it was stuck, I used as much strength as I could muster and it felt like I was going to break the top part of the assembly, with all the electrical connections, off of the metal rods before I got the rest of the assembly out. I have worked almost 10 hours total on this thing, so before anyone tries to say "be patient, it will come out," or anything of the like, please don't. There is no way this should have taken this long to do, and it still NOT be done. I talked to a couple people around here that do a lot of shadetree mechanic work, and they too have a hard time believing that it is not coming out, until I showed them the pictures below.

So what appears to have happened is that the rust on the top of the tank is causing the hole to shrink just a little, as well as the pump assembly swelling from being in the car for the past 12 years has made this job dang near impossible to do without sacrificing the pump assembly to remove it, which if I do I will obviously need to replace the entire pump assembly. And the entire time I run the risk of something breaking off and going into the tank, which then means dropping the tank. And that is going to be almost out of my league because the Haynes manual says I have to drop the exhaust down, which that is not a big deal, but I also have to pretty much completely disassemble the entire rear suspension sub-frame to get the heat shield, which I visually confirmed is welded to that sub-frame, out of the way so the tank could be removed. So unless there is a way to drop the tank without doing all those steps, I'm pretty much up the creek.


Here are the pics, they are not the greatest quality, because I took them using my iPhone:







Note that I am not even holding the pump assembly, it is wedged at this point, that is as far as it will come out.








off topic: a small teaser of what I will be picking up in about a month or two. When it gets closer to the time of me picking it up it will get it's own topic, the picture does not do this car justice. It's a 2008 Buick LaCrosse CXL, with not even 5k miles on it. Used to belong to my girlfriend's grandparents, her parents are being awesome and holding the car for me until I have the money to buy it off of them.