What the ?%@!

[1oldman]

I've been using a PC7424XP with Lake Country foam pads (Black, Red, White, Orange(2), and White). The PC does a really nice job, but really wears me out from all the "wild gyrations" caused by the random orbital action. I went and bought a Klutch polisher/buffer to see if it was any good. It came with a lot of nice items, including two very soft waffle foam pads, and they are made cheaply as is the polisher/sander. The Klutch is a "piece of junk', jmho.

Now for what really "gets my goat". I think the "junk Klutch" and cheap pads did a superior job on the wife's CTS compared to the PC. I'll post some pics showing the "fruits of my labor".

Now, someone please tell me what it is I'm doing incorrectly as I'm baffled. - BC


washed and clay bared


washed, clay bared and polished. See how clear my reflection is. I've never had a wax job (Meguiar's #26) look this good- ever.

[crash93ssei]

What polishes are you using with the PC and the Klutch?

Is this the Klutch you bought?
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/ ... _200442254

Whenever you do polishing, be sure to either give it a very good thorough wash or an IPA wipe down to remove any polishing oils leftover from the polishes you use as they will surely fill in some leftover scratches and hide buffer trails. A rotary like that Klutch I linked to is extremely hard to get a perfect finish with, even most pros and high end detailers finish down with an orbital polisher like the 7424XP or others.

What size pads are you using? I wouldn't use anything bigger then a 5.5" pad on an orbital, they just don't have the power to correctly utilize a larger pad, and actually the 7424XP is on the lower end of the power scale compared to other professional orbital polishers, but it is still one of the most trusted and smoothest out there. I just got one for Christmas as my original UDM is dying a slow death, but it really can't hold a candle to the power of my old polisher.

The real proof of what happened with the Klutch vs 7424XP will be in the sun when the wax and oils are gone from the paint.

Here is a black CTS that I ran across at a local store, this is the result of a rotary polisher, notice all the buffer trails / holograms.






I do not mean to offend you in any way, but if this is your first go-round with a rotary, chances are your car looks like that one under the wax and polishing oils. No worry though, I likely couldn't do much better with a rotary at this point either, it takes a lot of practice and patience with a rotary to get it to finish down perfectly.


Also, be very careful with the rotary polisher, especially around edges and corners, it will burn through your paint in the blink of an eye if not careful! A rotary will always have more correction power and capability then an orbital, but an orbital will pretty much always finish down nicer then a rotary.

[yourgrandma]

Pretty much going to echo what ryan said. Ive read that when it comes to "jeweling"(that final ridiculously fine polishing that justifies a $5000 detail, a rotory will finish out better. Thats beside the point....

Anyway, I would be scared out of my mind using unknown pads. If the pads really have no cut and are as soft asyou say, that Megs #26 really has some filling power with a rotory.

[1oldman]

Thanks for the input. No offense taken, I asked for input and I expect an honest answer.
I use the 6" Lake Country pads on the PC and typically Meguiar's non-professional products on the cars. I wipe the cars down with lots of water and a clean microfiber towel between steps, then dry with a clean microfiber towel. The Klutch polisher/sander you posted a link to is the one I used for the first time. I can stop it with one bare hand without any trouble. I used the pads that came with the Klutch to do this:
http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... 37191.html
I was scared to death I'd mess up the paint with it until I realized there wasn't much chance of that because the Klutch isn't even half as powerful as my PC. I knew not to stay in one place, keep moving and make sure I kept the pad flat on the car. I used the Pinnacle pad lube to make sure the pad wasn't dry and scratch the paint. I used Meguiar's Professional #26 yellow carnuba wax also instead of the "regular" Meguiar's wax I use.

Any more input would be appreciated as I still don't understand why the "junk" did such a great job. Maybe I should try the smaller pads? - BC

[crash93ssei]

5.5" and smaller (with the right backing plate of course) is all that should be used on your 7424, it just doesn't have the power to spin a 6" pad and do good correction.

I would like to introduce you to Menzerna polishes - http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-of-germany.html They are a little pricey, but I tell you right now they are absolutely worth every penny!

My go to method is...
1 - 5.5" Orange Lake Country CCS pad, Menzerna Super Intensive Polish SI-1500
2 - 5.5" White Lake Country CCS pad, Menzerna Super Finish Nano SF-4000
You will want to have several of each pads for each step, I like to use about four pads per step or wash the pad every other panel. A clean pad cuts quicker and leaves a nicer finish.
3 - Wash with a good soap or an IPA wipedown to remove polishing oils
4 - Dry thoroughly
5 - Wax or seal with whatever I want to use

I don't use any pad lube or pad primer or anything like that, just a waste of money in my opinion. If you are worried at all, just give it a very light mist of water from a spray bottle, but even that would only be necessary on the very first pass with a dry clean pad without any polishing residue on it. After that first spot it is no longer necessary.

Wiping down with water alone and microfiber towels will do nothing to remove polishing oils.


Both the PC 7424XP and that Klutch polisher are variable speed units, what speed were you using with them? The 7424 will basically need the highest speed setting to achieve any good correction and the Klutch would need approximately 3/4 or a little more speed. The lowest setting on either polisher will basically do nothing for you, and it sounds like at least the Klutch was set to the lowest speed setting if you could easily stop it by hand. With the 7424 you want to only apply enough pressure to maybe compress the pad half way, but if the pad stops rotating then you are pressing too hard and need to let off some. For the Klutch, apply light to medium pressure, but never a lot, you want the pad to spin and be completely flat on the paint, constant movement, but never really fast.

If with either polisher, while using it, the pad was easy to stop or was stopping then there was really no correction achieved, just filling in the swirls. If that is the case then your car is probably mostly free of any buffer trails and holograms as the polisher didn't have the speed / power necessary to cause them.

Pretty much going to echo what ryan said. Ive read that when it comes to "jeweling"(that final ridiculously fine polishing that justifies a $5000 detail, a rotory will finish out better. Thats beside the point....

Exactly, and even then you still have to have a lot of skill and a good amount of practice to really get the jeweling technique down, that involves a very very soft pad with absolutely no cut, a very fine finishing polish with almost no cut, high speed on the polisher and very little pressure.

[1oldman]

I never set the speed on either the PC or the Klutch more than just below 4. The pad gets warm when it is and I always thought that the heat buildup on the pad damaged the paint. The backing plate I use on the PC is the 4"(?) hook and loop. The CTS was the first time I used anything other than the "plain Meguiar's" products. I was amazed at how good the Meguiar's Professional #26 yellow wax turned out. That's the first time I've ever had a wax job even come close to looking like that. Guess I'll have to get my hands on your recommendations and give it a go. I still don't get it why the "Klutch junk" looks so much better than the "high dollar" (at least to me) PC, and LC pads. - BC

[crash93ssei]

Heat buildup will damage the paint, however orbital polishers like the PC 7424XP, because of the orbital action, are extremely hard to actually damage paint with. The PC isn't really powerful to begin with, and using a 6" pad at a speed setting of 4, you will basically get no correction at all. Spread the polish around on speed setting 1 or 2 for a couple seconds then bump it up to 6 with moderate pressure but not so much that the pad doesn't spin. Work around slowly overlapping each pass about 50%, I usually go up - down, left - right, then up - down again on the area I am polishing, that's a good starting point but it can be modified of course if the paint is really bad or not bad at all. Obviously the more damage the paint has the more work time you will have to spend, may even have to hit it a second time with the polish to get the results you want.


Basically don't fear the PC, it is an excellent tool. Not extremely powerful, but definitely powerful enough for good correction. The biggest areas to worry about are sharp corners and edges, if you are that nervous about them just get some blue painters tape and tape them off, definitely tape them off when using the rotary for sure! It is more likely you will damage the paint with the PC by dropping it on the paint then actually damaging it during polishing. Just take your time and the results will show!

Oh, there will be heat buildup too, the panel will surely get very warm, that is normal.

[ga93sle]

I always use a rotary for paint correction, usually at least 2 stages, and I 100% agree with using an orbital to finish the paint out. I can make paint look really nice with a rotary, but it's still no comparison to the way the orbital finishes. Isopropyl Alcohol is a really good way to make sure you don't have a lot of "wax" in your polish. I'm used to using some fairly expensive polishes, so I don't usually have to worry about "glazing", but I'm never cutting the check for them either lol.

[Grimm]

1oldman, just to clarify, are you actually using polish? I'm getting the impression from your posts that you are just using wax with the polishers. If that is the case, you don't want to be using a high speed with wax anyway.

[1oldman]

I clay bared, and polished the car out (Meguiar's Crystal polish & the PC) quite a while back. I then applied two coats of Klasse clear acrylic. Since then, I have washed the car numerous times and used quick detailer or wax as you dry on the car. The "three days hard work" started with a quick wash, clay bar, machine wax with the Klutch using Meguiar's #26 Professional wax, buff by hand, then apply a second coat of wax by hand, buff by hand. I also detailed the interior (took me 5 hours to do that - I move slow ha ha ha). - BC

[crash93ssei]

Ahhh, I totally misunderstood... I read that you were using the polishers and just automatically assumed that you were actually using polish to correct the paint. Well, you know what they say about assuming Good catch Grimm!!!


If all you used was the #26 wax, all of the swirls and scratches are still there, they are just filled in. As soon as the wax wears off the swirls and stuff will come right back.

[1oldman]

hopefully the scratches are in the acrylic I put on, not the paint as I buffed them out quite some time ago before putting on the two layers of acrylic. The "orange peel" is almost gone too. It seemed like the acrylic made the orange peel look worse when I first put it on. - BC

[Grimm]

I'm guessing you have scratches yet. I can see them to the right of your head in the 1st "washed and clayed" picture. And if all you used was wax this time, you wouldn't have removed any scratches.

[1oldman]

even with two coats on Klasse acrylic on top of the paint after I polished it with Meguiar's Crystal Polish, before the wax? - BC

[crash93ssei]

Definitely. Any sealant or wax you put on your car, if it gets scratched you can bet the paint underneath it is scratched as well. They just aren't thick enough to provide that kind of scratch resistance.

Sounds like the Meguiar's Crystal Polish is basically a glaze that is completely non-abrasive, so there was no actual paint correction in that process, just filling the swirls in and then sealing in the fillers with the Klasse then wax.

There is nothing wrong with doing that at all, it hides the swirls so you can't see them, where as polishing actually removes them all together. The difference is that the fillers will in time wear away and the swirls and scratches will all come back, while completely removing them you won't get any swirls or scratches until new ones get put in the paint.

[00Beast]

I agree. You need actual polishes for any correction. Wax just fills the imperfections in.

[1oldman]

Got it. I'm a big chicken when it comes to messing with paint, so until I get "adult supervision", I'll continue to fill in the scratches, lol - BC

[crash93ssei]

No problem at all with that.

One thing you can do if you want to experiment is get a banged up fender or hood for super cheap and practice away on that with no worries of hurting paint. That way you can get familiar with the machine and polishing, see what it does.

[1oldman]

Here is what I used to polish the CTS with before I put the Klasse acrylic on:


http://www.meguiars.com/en/automotive/p ... em-polish/

Deep Crystal® Polish
Product number: A2116 | SKU: A2116
Deep Crystal® System Polish is a pure polish specially formulated for dark-colored cars. Clear coat safe, the formula creates a brilliant, high gloss finish by conditioning and nourishing paint through the replenishment of valuable oils. This makes dark colors darker and reflections deeper. It’s that extra step necessary to create an amazing wet-look show car shine.

• Creates a brilliant, high gloss finish by conditioning & nourishing paint.
• A pure polish specially formulated for dark-colored cars.
• Hand application only.
CPSIA

I used the PC with the orange LCC foam pad. I had the speed of the PC below 4 at all times. It sez hand apply only, but I figured since I was letting the PC do all the work, it would be ok. We did the oldest son's '05 CTS first that way, waxed it with the Meguiar's #26 wax, and it still looks like it just got washed and waxed, and that was almost 6 months ago. - BC

[crash93ssei]

Yup, absolutely no abrasives at all in that polish, no swirls were removed, only filled in then sealed in with the Klasse.

Again, there is nothing at all wrong with that! The only time that it is wrong to fill is when you are detailing and promise high end paint correction but instead fill, basically ripping the customer off.