ECU Retune ceiling

[spoiledred94]

Ahh, that's just what I wanted...Thank you Don. You can be sure I'm taking your help well and carefully. Would 3 degrees be too much even if I used 93 octane whenever I am using this PCM? I'll talk to Ryan about the 1-2,2-3 shift point raises. I am running the 180 stat.

[00Beast]

Have you ever scanned for KR?

[spoiledred94]

Have you ever scanned for KR?

My Actron Scanner showed a 0 i think for the KR under real time. what amount of KR is acceptable/ beneficial

[00Beast]

Under what conditions did it show 0? WOT on the hottest day possible is the *worst* scenario for KR, aka you're going to get the most KR. If you get 0 KR under any conditions, you can probably safely bump the timing a little.

[spoiledred94]

Under what conditions did it show 0? WOT on the hottest day possible is the *worst* scenario for KR, aka you're going to get the most KR. If you get 0 KR under any conditions, you can probably safely bump the timing a little.

I am just going to recheck it in the morning when it's light. There is a lot of information the scanner provides that I know nothing or little about. I vaguely remember the number being 0 at idle. KR= Knock Retard?

[01bonneSC]

..yes, KR means knock retard. Do you have a manual with your scanner?

[spoiledred94]

Yeah, it's right here. It was out in the car.

[00Beast]

You need to be driving to check for KR, FYI. Go find a nice empty road and do some 0-80 runs, and see what the maximum KR you see is. If you get any, then you shouldn't add any timing.

[willwren]

You need the hottest conditions possible, because you need worst-case KR for your tune. If a hot 90° day gets you KR at the shift or at anything above 4,000 rpm's, that's your number and timing shouldn't be added. You'll never see KR at idle, and if you did, your car wouldn't last long.

You also shouldn't tune until you understand all the parameters displayed on your actron tool. A FULL understanding of them all.

[spoiledred94]

Ed,
Ryan at Sinister Performance is holding until I can get more information for shift points and the KR. I intend to get the KR readings when I can catch my buddy today to monitor the scanner. I


Don,
Ryan is asking for specific information on shift points. He wants to know 200 rpm increase from what point. Would it be 200 rpm increase from the 1-2 and 2-3 shift points listed in the FSM?


Will,
I will read up today on KR and get out the full manual for the scanner. Obviously I won't have a full understanding of all the parameters, but since this is a very basic tune I should be all right with the advice I get here and from Ryan.

[willwren]

You ALSO need the FSM for your car, or you will never get it all. You need the scanner and FSM at the least, then do a scan for KR on a hot, humid day. Tune from there. That should give you a good 6 months at least to bone up on your homework to be able to eke out the last 10hp a tune will net you.

[spoiledred94]

Krap Bill, I am not going to get all that, I don't know how. My FSM's are fine, I use them often. MY KR is max of four degrees at about 4K and then just for sec. I've lost that manual. I looked everywhere in my apt. I'll just go with a no timing advance adj.

[01bonneSC]

the manual for the scanner? Ya can probably find a downloadable manual on the net.

[willwren]

4 degrees in this weather? You got problems already that need to be addressed. No tune at all until that's fixed.

[spoiledred94]

4 degrees in this weather? You got problems already that need to be addressed. No tune at all until that's fixed.

okay. I can ask Ryan to wait until furthur notice.

I ran the test with the engine throughly warm this time. I still got up to 4 degrees knock retard.. I'm hoping it's a combination of my mods and 87 octane from Fred Meyer, and that higher quality and higher octane will fix this. If it does is that case closed? I'll start looking up KR here and hopefully I'll find some likely causes.

EDIT: not finding too much help. Although I have been suspecting a bad motor and/or trans mount and I am due for a tune up.

EDIT 2:

I don't think it's a motor mount issue now. It could be and I'll recheck that tomorrow but I'm leaning toward my exhaust leak at the donut being the culprit.

[willwren]

4° of KR on an L27 is crazy, especially in the cold weather we're having out West. I'd expect your donut to be nearly shot to be the sole cause of that much KR. Higher octane is nothing more than a troubleshooting method or band-aid. It is not a permanent fix. Your car (regardless of the mods you have) should run fine on 87 octane with no KR. If that can't be achieved, you need to fix it mechanically, not by pump selection.

Some things that can contribute in varying amounts to your problem:

1. Exhaust diameter too large for your flow/mods (exhaust velocity is too low, no scavenging effect).
2. Exhaust leak. I bet it's not just the donut. You probably have cracks in the EM's that you can't see (very common) and in the crossover under the heatshield.
3. MAF screen removed. Your MAF sensor is not getting an accurate reading. Put it back. It's nowhere near a restriction on any L27. It's critical for proper sensor operation.
4. Fueling. What are your LT and ST fuel trims? (and no, larger injectors won't fix this and are not needed, and will in fact make your problem worse).

Part of the problem here is that we have no idea what you had Ryan program into your current eprom, and it sounds like you don't fully understand it either. If you have a spare eprom, I'd try running it (same pcm, just swap eproms) before I'd try a higher octane.

Fred Meyer doesn't buy crap gas, BTW, they typically buy from good commercial name-brand sources.

[spoiledred94]

+what would it tell me if the 93 octane produced no KR?

+For my exhaust it's a 2.5". The OEM muffler is out and 2.5" Thrush glass pack in. The OEM Cat was replaced with a Magna flow High Flow Cat. Also the main straight pipe has a glass pack in it and I replaced it with a straight 2.5" pipe. You know all this, so are you saying my ex mods could be hurting performance?

+ the donut seems to be intact. I vac fed her though the brake booster vac hose and steam blew out of the donut area whereas the was nothing from the EMs. Note: I've had an exhaust leak for like 3 months and it makes the standard 65 VW sound under acceleration. I am hopeful this is the source of my KR.

+I hope to leave the MAF screen out if fixing EX leak does it

+The LT & ST Fuel trim data is listed pretty close to KR on my scanner. Thanks I will get numbers for that. (you have done a lot more for my car than I think you ever intended). How much does it cost to get injectors cleaned? I read that could be it too.

Ryan is currently on hold, BUT he will be reprogramming the EPROM he programmed for me last time. Right now I have an OLDS 88 Royale PCM I got from the 3.06 differential donor car.
This is the PCM I ran last at Woodburn. I have the original stock PCM from my car too.

[willwren]

+what would it tell me if the 93 octane produced no KR?

Not much. Higher octane fuel is simply harder to ignite. All it really tells you is that it's not False Knock. In your case, it's pretty clear it's real.

+For my exhaust it's a 2.5". The OEM muffler is out and 2.5" Thrush glass pack in. The OEM Cat was replaced with a Magna flow High Flow Cat. Also the main straight pipe has a glass pack in it and I replaced it with a straight 2.5" pipe. You know all this, so are you saying my ex mods could be hurting performance?

No, I don't know all this. How many cars do you think I can memorize the mod lists for? How do I know how up-to-date your mod list in your signature is? With what you just posted, I'd say you spent a bunch of money on your exhaust that you weren't even close to needing (IIRC, you were told this long ago), and may actually be hurting you. Too-free flowing is a BAD thing in many cases. It can reduce velocity and prevent the scavenging effect I mentioned earlier. Component selection is just as important as diameter selection. You couldn't out-flow the stock 94 cat, resonator, and muffler on a 2.5" pipe, so why did you do all the exhaust work?

+ the donut seems to be intact. I vac fed her though the brake booster vac hose and steam blew out of the donut area whereas the was nothing from the EMs. Note: I've had an exhaust leak for like 3 months and it makes the standard 65 VW sound under acceleration. I am hopeful this is the source of my KR.

Exhaust manifold cracks cannot be diagnosed with smoke or steam. They have to be removed from the car, and I'd bet I've told you this before. Careful inspection with water in them (tricky technique) will find the cracks. The heat shield on the crossover can hide cracks there. The heat shields from all 3 pieces have to be removed for inspection and repair, then riveted back (no screws) when you're done. I've probably given this very sound advice over 200 times on this Forum since 2002. All Series 1 Manifolds crack, and 95% on this Forum probably are. Most are minor enough the owner doesn't care or need to know, but if you plan to mod, you better! If they're PROPERLY repaired, they will never crack again. The cracking is from initial stress, and once 'broken in' or 'stress relieved', they can be welded and stay that way. You better know the PROPER TECHNIQUE before welding though, or you'll only make it worse.

Some examples of cracks, and keep in mind, I found MORE that were not visible by using the water technique:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/willwren/em2.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/willwren/em3.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/willwren/em4.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/willwren/em5.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/willwren/em6.jpg

The links above represent about 25% of the cracks found after heat shield removal. 50% of the total cracks were not visible to the naked eye on the first visual inspection.



Your exhaust leaks smacks of a severely cracked crossover pipe to me:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b251/ ... C03935.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b251/ ... C03936.jpg

Both of these were hidden by the heat shield.

+I hope to leave the MAF screen out if fixing EX leak does it

Then you didn't read my last post in this topic (regarding the function of that screen), and I don't know why I'm even trying to help you. Go back and read what I posted, then put it back.

+The LT & ST Fuel trim data is listed pretty close to KR on my scanner. Thanks I will get numbers for that. (you have done a lot more for my car than I think you ever intended). How much does it cost to get injectors cleaned? I read that could be it too.

This is why I told you to get the FSM's and read them. You will not understand LTFT or STFT until you do. You need to read and learn yourself, not from asking here. Why do you need your injectors cleaned, and why do you want to just throw more money at this thing when it might not be the problem?

Ryan is currently on hold, BUT he will be reprogramming the EPROM he programmed for me last time. Right now I have an OLDS 88 Royale PCM I got from the 3.06 differential donor car.
This is the PCM I ran last at Woodburn. I have the original stock PCM from my car too.

[/quote][/quote]

So you're running an Olds 88 PCM now, with it's original Eprom? From what year? And you're getting KR off that stock tune? What does your original PCM and Eprom do? The same? You have such a mish-mash of parts and combinations here, it's going to be twice as hard to nail it down.

Are you starting to get an idea that you should have asked a lot more questions a year ago, and that most of what we told you a year or more ago wasn't just fluff?

L67's usually run about 5hp per degree of timing. I'd expect an L27 or L36 to be in the range of 3hp or so per degree. In other words, you have enough KR to negate all your mods.

[spoiledred94]

No, I don't know all this. How many cars do you think I can memorize the mod lists for? How do I know how up-to-date your mod list in your signature is? With what you just posted, I'd say you spent a bunch of money on your exhaust that you weren't even close to needing (IIRC, you were told this long ago), and may actually be hurting you. Too-free flowing is a BAD thing in many cases. It can reduce velocity and prevent the scavenging effect I mentioned earlier. Component selection is just as important as diameter selection. You couldn't out-flow the stock 94 cat, resonator, and muffler on a 2.5" pipe, so why did you do all the exhaust work?

My exhaust cost me about $175: $80 Cat ,$25 Thrush glass pack, Pro installation $70 And she always raises an eyebrow when I start it up
When I startted out with the exhaust in 2007 I went with what I read here was that the first thin to think about is get more flow from the CAI through the exhaust.

Exhaust manifold cracks cannot be diagnosed with smoke or steam. They have to be removed from the car, and I'd bet I've told you this before. Careful inspection with water in them (tricky technique) will find the cracks. The heat shield on the crossover can hide cracks there. The heat shields from all 3 pieces have to be removed for inspection and repair, then riveted back (no screws) when you're done. I've probably given this very sound advice over 200 times on this Forum since 2002. All Series 1 Manifolds crack, and 95% on this Forum probably are. Most are minor enough the owner doesn't care or need to know, but if you plan to mod, you better! If they're PROPERLY repaired, they will never crack again. The cracking is from initial stress, and once 'broken in' or 'stress relieved', they can be welded and stay that way. You better know the PROPER TECHNIQUE before welding though, or you'll only make it worse.

Some examples of cracks, and keep in mind, I found MORE that were not visible by using the water technique:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/willwren/em2.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/willwren/em3.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/willwren/em4.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/willwren/em5.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/willwren/em6.jpg

The links above represent about 25% of the cracks found after heat shield removal. 50% of the total cracks were not visible to the naked eye on the first visual inspection.



Your exhaust leaks smacks of a severely cracked crossover pipe to me:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b251/ ... C03935.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b251/ ... C03936.jpg

Both of these were hidden by the heat shield.

Those are in terrible shape. just awful. I'll try to JY a pair of EMs etc over the winter, get them welded (prolly my guy at the same muffler shop.) Or is this a case where the welder has to have experience doing just this?

This is why I told you to get the FSM's and read them. You will not understand LTFT or STFT until you do. You need to read and learn yourself, not from asking here. Why do you need your injectors cleaned, and why do you want to just throw more money at this thing when it might not be the problem?

I'll get to the LT ST data in the FSM's. Thanks for taking the time.

So you're running an Olds 88 PCM now, with it's original Eprom? From what year? And you're getting KR off that stock tune? What does your original PCM and Eprom do? The same? You have such a mish-mash of parts and combinations here, it's going to be twice as hard to nail it down.

Are you starting to get an idea that you should have asked a lot more questions a year ago, and that most of what we told you a year or more ago wasn't just fluff?

The olds pcm is a 94, and i'll try the Stock PCM asap. I'll put the MAF screen back in today or tomorrow.

[willwren]

My exhaust cost me about $175: $80 Cat ,$25 Thrush glass pack, Pro installation $70 And she always raises an eyebrow when I start it up
When I startted out with the exhaust in 2007 I went with what I read here was that the first thin to think about is get more flow from the CAI through the exhaust.

And hurt your performance. And 90% of the advice given for flow doesn't really apply to the L27 because it flows so little, even compared to the L36. It has tiny ports in comparison, a midget throttle plate, and a considerably lower redline rpm and shift points. In other words, you did a bunch of work to your exhaust that would benefit most cars here, but hurt the performance of your L27. I recall telling you countless times that you weren't going to get what you wanted out of the L27, and this is one of the reasons why.

Those are in terrible shape. just awful. I'll try to JY a pair of EMs etc over the winter, get them welded (prolly my guy at the same muffler shop.) Or is this a case where the welder has to have experience doing just this?

Terrible shape? This is TYPICAL, and most people don't even know it, which is why I stress this every time I can, including to you. There is a local exhaust shop that I trust to a very high level, and I wouldn't let him do mine, because most exhaust guys never run into these issues. The PROPER method is posted on the Forum, and had you searched, you'd have found it. I also wouldn't be surprised if I hadn't already linked you to it:

You have to drill the rivets off the heatshields, and I strongly suggest riveting them back in place (screws and nuts won't hold) when you're done.

Here's what you're looking for (interestingly, there is only one picture on my photobucket account older than these):






(tiny crack just above the weld running horizontally in the middle of the picture)





Crossover cracks:





Notice the heat shields are still on them? More cracks were found underneath them. Some of them are TINY hairline cracks. The best way to find them is to pour a little water in them, and slosh them around. The water will leak through a crack and darken it. Mark them with a permanent marker so you can find them when it's time to weld.

For welding, fix one crack on one manifold, then switch to the other manifold while it cools. This keeps a single manifold from getting too hot and warping or changing shape. Here are some examples:





Welding the flanges isn't necessary. I only did it because I knew I was going to port my heads within a year or two. The weld restriction on the manifolds is still larger than the exhaust ports on a Series 1:


(this was the first of the stitch welds, we moved from one runner to the next, and back and forth between the manifolds until they were welded well)




Make sure you and your welder know that these are STAINLESS STEEL!
After welding, don't use high-temp exhaust manifold paint like I did the first time, it won't hold:





This is a finished port (this was brutal work, don't waste your time with it for no benefit unless you plan to port heads soon):

(even with a die grinder, this took me an hour and a half for EACH PORT)

You WILL need to use gaskets for installation, especially after welding stresses the manifolds. Here's what they look like:



Never wrap these manifolds (or any headers). Coating only. Most areas have good exhaust (ceramic) coating shops to do this, but I chose DIY because I have the tools to do it with. I chose Tech Line Coatings "Black Satin" Header Coating. You can buy it at speedwaymotors.com and the small can is plenty to apply an even coat on both manifolds and the crossover with some left over for touch-up. You CAN let it air dry only if you are very careful installing them (they scratch before they're cured), then cure them on the car (Idle for at least an hour before driving). I pre-baked them in the oven, and it wasn't easy:








(notice the face of the flange is gasket-prepped properly)


If you don't have a compressor or spray gun, you CAN use this: http://www.preval.com/ My local Home Depot has it, and I bet Lowe's or any paint store would too. Buy an extra can just in case, and DO NOT THIN the coating.

My manifolds have held up to some pretty extreme abuse over the last three years

DO NOT PORT THE EXHAUST MANIFOLDS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. There's only ONE car on this Forum that truly needs it, as the stock manifolds have no restriction when compared to the stock head ports, and there is only one Series 1 on this Forum with ported heads. I just want to make that CLEAR before you run out and start doing more crap that won't help you, and would likely hurt you.


The frustrating thing for me is this is information you should have fully understood before you started hacking your car up. All this information has been here, and we have been here to answer your questions. When you do ask, and advice is given, most of it is ignored entirely or argued back. The past year's work and money spent on your car have netted you absolutely zero gain in performance on your car. It runs at the dragstrip no quicker than most well-maintained stock L27's here. More than half of your time and money has been spent on things that weren't worth messing with. Even your CAI can be causing KR if it's sucking air from the engine bay, and this has been discussed on this Forum thousands of times, and many of them with you, so if this is still the case under your hood, I'd have to ask you why it hasn't been changed in spite of all the advice here?

And if you're not taking the advice given on this Forum (and you clearly haven't), why are we continuing to try to GIVE such advice?