Can I tell if I have Dexcool?

[DealMeN]

So, I'm 2 weeks into my new '01 SSEi and loving it so far. I've been reading this forum and have completed several maintenance items.

I have read about the effects of the OEM Dexcool and it seems that everyone suggests flushing it out asap. I'm rather short on time, cash, and facilities to perform an unneeded coolant flush, so is there any way to tell if my car has Dexcool still or if it has already been flushed? All I know about it's history is that it was a 1-owner until 2010 at 87k, then traded at a dealer and sold to the person who I bought it from. It currently has 89k and runs like a top.

I searched the forum, but didn't see any similar posts about how to tell if you don't need to flush...

[myfirstbonnie]

Look in the coolant overflow tank. It will appear orange. The biggest sign of needing a flush is when it turns brown and muddy looking. You can also remove the radiator cap (when cool) and check there.

[2002BonnevilleSE]

http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... f=53&t=159
How to replace the dexcool in your car.
Make sure you get it all out. Use mixes with any coolant. (except dex cool).
I even took the overflow tank out and used a bottle brush to clean it out completely.
On my 97 the spring in the cap and thermostat were clogged with orange crap.

[imidazol97]

I'm rather short on time, cash, and facilities to perform an unneeded coolant flush, so is there any way to tell if my car has Dexcool still or if it has already been flushed?

The orange brown color is a good sign that it has DexCool. If the reservoir has a brown color material stuck to the sides that is most likely the ground organic pills put into the cooling system as a part of the recall to add washers to the three screws holding the throttle body in place to ensure better sealing around the throttle body gasket against the UIM and to add the sealing pills to stop seeps. They had stopped adding the ground material at the factory because people felt the brown tone it added to the reservoir tank was a selling problem. The ground walnut particles collect in the reservoir and stick to the sides.

If the material in the tank is more blackish and gummy, someone may have added some old style antifreeze or used contaminated equipment to check. That needs to be drained.

Your radiator cap needs to be cleaned occasionally. I suggest using a toothbrush (I use old ones to do this--keep a collection in one of my garage drawers) to scrub the underside and remove the gunk which accumulates there so that the little float washer can seal against the cap when the radiator heats up enough to go under pressure. That little washer opens to let the radiator pull in coolant from the reservoir when the volume in the radiator and engine shrinks as it cools off.

DexCool changed forumula from the earliest and that must have been around 99 when they started realizing there were problems with some seals and with the EGR passage in the upper intake manifold. The new formula is the same as the "Mixes with All Colors" stuff--check the labels on the bottles at Walmart.

If you find your cooling system is original and needing changed or has been contaminated, I suggest using a cleaner where you run the motor for a time and then flush that stuff out. Getting DexCool's color completely out of the engine is difficult. Otherwise, drain the system using the drain on the bottom of the radiator or taking off the lower radiator hose and let the engine cool. Then fill with water and run until it fully warms up and circulates. Drain again. Cool. Refill, until you see most clear water to suit when you drain. Then refill with DexCool or Mixes Any Color. Note that draining with radiator hose leaves about half the coolant in the engine and you must use 100% Coolant-don't use the 50/50 mixtures to get to the 50% level required for winter and summer in most areas.

If you want to do maintenance on your car, I would recommend taking off the throttle body and replacing the gasket with an aftermarket. When my 2003 had seep and lost coolant slightly at times and not at others, it was the throttle body gasket not sealing that was leaking rather than the lower intake or the EGR in the Upper Intake Manifold. I had considered changing the throttle body while cleaning the backflow gunk at about 80,000 mi. If I had done that, i wouldn't have had any problems just for the cost of a $12 gasket. My mechanic said the originals were too thin and that's why GM added the extra pressure washer on the replacement nuts for the throttle body in the recall in 2003-4.

[00Beast]

Old Dex-cool is Orange-ish, new formulation Dex-cool is red and "normal" coolant is a yellow-green.

[DealMeN]

Ok, so it seems that I probably still have the old stuff. The coolant reservoir is rather low, but the liquid in it appears to be orange and somewhat dirty. So, I guess that I'll be having the coolant flushed very soon.

That said, is there any compelling necessity to do a preventative gasket replacement? I'm all for preventative maintenance when prudent, but it doesn't sound like an inexpensive job...So, the question is whether to schedule a preventative gasket replacement due to concerns about oil/coolant contamination? Is there some easy way for me to monitor for a problem rather than take action today?

[01bonneSC]

You will have to replace the gaskets with the aluminum framed ones.

http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... =53&t=3591

[imidazol97]

So, I guess that I'll be having the coolant flushed very soon.

That said, is there any compelling necessity to do a preventative gasket replacement? I'm all for preventative maintenance when prudent, but it doesn't sound like an inexpensive job...So, the question is whether to schedule a preventative gasket replacement due to concerns about oil/coolant contamination? Is there some easy way for me to monitor for a problem rather than take action today?

I would flush the coolant through drain and replacements and put in mixes with any color or new DexCool, or have a flush done at a good shop.

I would NOT do a preventative replacement on the Upper Intake Manifold and lower gasket right now. I would plan for one in the future. Instead make a practice of filling the coolant in the reservoir to a particular level when you have parked overnight. Note that level every couple of weeks when the car has sat overnight to be sure it stays at that level. A very slight loss might occur with other problems such as water pump, o-rings on coolant elbows that go to the heater, etc. As the temperatures cool for overnight the level may drop slightly as well due to contraction of the coolant volume.

If there's any drop in coolant level, refill with some 50/50 coolant mix or just plain water from a measuring cup or something that measures in ounces. If you start having to add a cup (8 ounces) or more a month other than for ambient temperature decreases, then I'd start checking for a leak. Then look for service on the lower intake gasket, upper intake manifold and the gaskets that are on it.

One way to verify internal leak is with an oil sample analysis that shows sodium and potassium in the oil.
$25 Blackstonelab.com and others are cheaper

You might start looking for a mechanic who will do the job correctly but cheaper. I found a guy by referral here who will use the parts customers bring in and work for the labor. He's in a tire/mechanical repair store, but they have had loss of business to the box stores and to a repair shop opened about 3 blocks away on the main street. An engineer friend of mine had told me that shop would do his oil changes and plugs with his parts. Then they did his 2002 repair on his gaskets.

UIM with metal sleeve from ineedparts.com $90?
Metal framed lower gaskets $60
May be available there as a combination kit

http://www.ineedparts.com/auto-parts/in ... 17806.html

Note at bottom combination price for what I believe are metal framed repair for lower gaskets. $170 plus shipping

[01bonneSC]

He has an SSEi so he doesnt have an UIM. I wouldnt worry about monitoring anything. They NEED to be replaced, plain and simple. But get the DEX out ASAP.

[yonkerse]

I agree with 01bonneSC...

To put into perspective,

I bought my 2005 SLE last April and it had 74000 miles on it. I had plans of doing the gasket repair when I purchased the car, but needed to familiarize myself with the repair. I then got busy and didnt get around to it as soon as planned..

Finally, at around 90,000 miles, I got a chance to do the repair. Mind you, my car has been running flawless and wasn't losing ANY coolant. I never had to add coolant to it during the 15000 miles I drove it. I was strictly doing the repair as preventative maintenance...

When I got the LIM off, I was really surprised to see the condition of the gaskets and ports. Some were completely clogged and I'm surprised the engine functioned as well as it has. Here are some pictures to put into perspective...

The Port on the opposite side looked exactly the same:


And the new gaskets installed:


I would suggest getting them replaced as soon as possible, as I mentioned, mine had been failing with no apparent signs on my car...

Just my .02 cents!

[01bonneSC]

Heres what mine looked like at about 130k...

[DealMeN]

Thanks for all of the replies! It's very helpful to learn from the experiences of the forum members.

I must admit the write up that 01bonneSC linked to is more than I would attempt on my own. So, I'll start getting estimates on the work and search the forum to see if others have posted the estimates/costs for this work. It will still be a difficult decision to spend a lot of cash when there aren't any symptoms, but I understand the nature of the problem and the potential disastrous outcome of gasket failure.

Given the extent of this work, are there any other common maintenance items (or performance enhancements) that are done at the same time? I've had the mod bug on Jeeps in the past and I could see the same thing on the SSEi...it still needs to be a reliable dd, but a few extra ponies is always nice.

[00Beast]

I would say a "Fair" estimate of the work is $500-700 dollars parts and labor, depending on your area's labor rates. The best option is to provide your own gaskets and "Mixes-With-Any" coolant so that you ensure your repair is permanent, and done right.

I know it's not inexpensive, but it's a known problem and you can fix it for a fraction of the cost of a new engine, which is what will happen when those gaskets fail.

[yonkerse]

DealMen,

I was in the same shoes you were in right now. I bought my car knowing it was going to need the repair, and was also looking around for estimates. I was getting anywhere from 800-1000 in my area (southwest Michigan)

I spent awhile on the forum, and familiarizing myself with the repair. My total cost for all the parts was right around $200 i believe, maybe $250 at the most. If you have a decent set of tools, and a buddy somewhat knowledgable..you two can complete this in a weekend.

What I found, is cameras (I used my camera phone) was really important. I literally took pictures every step along the way. There are lots of parts to remove and reassemble...the picture show exactly how it all goes back together. Also, when removing parts, I put all relating pieces or bolts in a bag and labeled them.

It's up to you, but paying 500 in labor kinda bothers me..im in college at the moment right now and that would help pay for books for a sememster..

Ask your buddies and see if any of them can help you out. Or, even ask a local mechanic if he can do it on the weekend as a side job..have had friends do this as well for a fraction of the cost..

Just looking out for ya! Once done, it will be satisfying knowing you have many years left in the ol motor! :D

[DealMeN]

Thanks for all of the replies and advice. I got an estimate of $750 parts & labor from my local mechanic who I've gone to for years. He said that was using the newer aluminum gaskets and such.

I'm a bit confused on the actual parts needed for this job. I see that the gasket kit is roughly $60, plus coolant, oil, and other incidentals. What else am I missing? Most posts on the forum reference $200-$300 in parts for this job, so I'm sure that I'm missing something.

[willwren]

Where are you located? This could be something you could do with help, assuming you have a member nearby who is familiar with the work. It'll save you about $500.

Here's more particulars for you:

www.dex-cool.net

[DealMeN]

Well, I'm going to have my mechanic do the job next week. He'll let me provide parts, so I will round up what I can this week.

Aside from the LIM gasket, what other parts are worth providing to avoid the mechanic markup?

[00Beast]

Coolant elbows, S/C gasket (called Plenum gasket at parts store), Throttle Body gasket, new belts if you think it needs them, and the valve cover gaskets are known to leak, so now would be a great time to have him do them as well.

[vogie01]

I am buying my parts for the same job as we speak. I bought my valve cover & LIM gaskets from Advanced for $59 after tax(bought online, and picked up at the store). I used the discount codes that one of the other forum members had posted on here not to long ago.

I bought only the APN kit from above mentioned site(automotive parts network), and I am going to buy coolant from Walmart ($12.47x2 for a concentrated jug of Prestone Mixes with Anything). You can get the parts cheap if you are willing to shop around and wait. Don't forget any parts/supplies such as oil, thermostat, oil filter, and other things that will drive up your bottom line.

My advice, shop, shop, and look for all the discount codes you can. Search on this site for advanced auto, and you will find the codes.

When I called shops, prices for doing the job correctly ranged from $800 at the shop where I know the guys, to $650 at the stealership. Doing it myself with the help of a friend that went to Wyo-Tech is the way I am going.

[00Beast]

I'm assuming the mechanic would just use oil out of his drum. New thermostat isn't a bad idea either.