Accessory pulley chatter noise...fixed...and with a writeup

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LeSabreUltra
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Accessory pulley chatter noise...fixed...and with a writeup

Post by LeSabreUltra »

My Buick started making this noise a while back...I didn't think much of it at first, because it wasn't very loud and it didn't happen all the time. It's still not very loud, but it seems to happen a lot more often once it's warmed up. I only hear it at idle, when initially taking off from a stop, and when coasting down the road at low speed.

Here's a video:

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You can hear it pretty clearly. It seems to be coming from the tensioner area. The tensioner also jumps around a little bit when it makes the noise, which you can also see. Other than that, when it's not making the noise, the entire accessory system is smooth and quiet.

Any ideas? I have to get this fixed in less than a week because I'm taking this car to North Carolina exactly one week from right now. Any help is appreciated!

While I was waiting for my video to upload, I went outside and played with my pulleys, and here is what I found.

The alternator and AC Compressor pulleys are 100% fine. That is of course with the AC clutch disengaged, but I don't think that the compressor is the problem, since it works fine and the noise doesn't come from that area.

The tensioner pulley is smooth and quiet, and has no lateral play.

The tensioner itself was very stiff, so I think it's holding good tension. It's a Duracrap part, bought before I knew any better, so it doesn't have tension marks. Like I said though, I'm pretty sure it's holding good tension.

PS pump turns freely but seems to have some resistance. Not enough to make it hard to turn or anything but enough to where it doesn't spin at all after being let go. I don't know if this is normal for a PS pump or not, I would assume so. It has no lateral play.

Water pump has a very minute amount (and I really mean that, it's barely perceptible) of in and out, as well as possibly some side to side play. But it does make a noise when moved. Like this:

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I wasn't able to make it move side to side in the video, only in and out.

The water pump is also a Duracrap, again, bought before I knew any better.

Looking at the coolant, I do seem to be losing a very small amount of coolant. The level seems to have dropped about 1/2" since last week, when I topped it off. It was a little low then too.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, I have to get this fixed fast!
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Last edited by LeSabreUltra on Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Accessory pulley chatter noise...need help kinda quick!

Post by LeSabreUltra »

Okay guys, I've let the engine cool down a bit so that I could really get in there and look at it.

I'm seeing zero evidence (other than the tiny amount of play) that the water pump is failing. The last time it failed, I found coolant in the pulley, and running down the side of the engine. It had just started to fail, so it was just a little bit, but the signs were there. I'm seeing no evidence of that this time. The pulley is dry, as is the area directly under the water pump.

Also, the last time I heard a chatter noise like this (it was very similar, but only when first taking off from a stop) was when the duracrap tensioner failed on my truck. I never got to really look at it (had a stealership take care of it) so I can't say whether it was holding good tension or not at the time. Pulling, pushing, and doing everything else I can seems to yield nothing. I can't make the pulley or the arm move in or out, nor does moving it through it's range of motion seem to reveal anything. It did feel a little gritty when I first took the belt off earlier this afternoon, but not so when I messed with it just now. It does seem to be very solid tension wise.

Also, just for kicks I checked the level in the PS pump, it was full.

Coolant leaks seem to suggest water pump, but noise and the jumping around would suggest the tensioner. I'm a little confused here. Any help would be greatly appreciated, I have to do something about this soon!
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Re: Accessory pulley chatter noise...need help kinda quick!

Post by Jrs3800 »

Your tensioner assembly may be done... If you watch your vid very close you can see the tensioner bob( almost like vibrate ) with the noise.. Watch the video several times over and you'll see it.. Not 100% sure thats the problem, but its looking like it..
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Re: Accessory pulley chatter noise...need help kinda quick!

Post by LeSabreUltra »

Thanks for the reply Don, I really appreciate it.

And you are exactly right, I was hoping the video would pick that up and it kinda did, the tensioner does indeed twitch...or vibrate as you say would probably be more accurate...with the noise.

That's good enough for me. It'll be tomorrow's project. I'm not sure I have time to wait for Rock Auto, so I guess I will have to buy it locally. I will not be buying another cheap part though, which eliminates any of the Gates/Dayco/Duralast crap. Napa has one for $120.00. Anyone know about how much one would be from the dealer? I'm debating getting expedited shipping on the Rock Auto AC Delco unit, which lists for $76.00 without shipping. That would have me replacing it sometime this coming week.
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Re: Accessory pulley chatter noise...need help kinda quick!

Post by LeSabreUltra »

Okay, got the tensioner replaced, and the noise/vibration is gone!

I noted that we don't currently have a writeup on how to replace a belt tensioner in techinfo, so for the hell of it, I thought I'd write up one for future members to reference off of. Hope this helps someone later on.

The unsuspecting victim:

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Earlier in this thread I mentioned the brands I'd rather avoid, including Gates and Dayco. However I decided to do research on both just to make an informed decision on what would be the best and most cost effective tensioner to get for my car.

The Dayco was awful tempting. It was the cheapest, and even more so considering I would have gotten $10 off with the current Advance Auto Parts promotion. However, upon looking at the part, I noted that it appears to be an EXACT copy of the Duralast tensioner I had on the car already that failed prematurely. Be warned that I believe that Duralast tensioners are made by Dayco, and therefore are to be avoided. These tensioners have no tension indicators on them and fail prematurely.

However I read that several people liked Gates tensioners, and upon looking at one it appeared to be an exact OE copy. It seems, as a whole, to be very solid and well made. It even came with a brand new coolant elbow in the box. How convenient is that? The unit is made in Canada rather than China which is a huge plus. I bought my Gates tensioner at O'Reilly's Auto Parts for about $98 before tax. I would have preferred AC Delco naturally, but I couldn't wait for Rock Auto to ship it to me. I do believe Gates to be an acceptable substitute though. Here is my Gates unit with included coolant elbow:

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I looked it over well, and it gets my approval. Note that it appears to be an OE copy and includes the tension indicator marks.

Here is a list of all that you will need to complete this project:

Ramps or jackstands
Coolant (1 gallon of pure antifreeze is all you will need more than likely)
Tensioner and a spare coolant elbow
Pliers (or appropriately sized wrench for your negative battery terminal)
15mm wrench
8mm wrench or socket
10mm socket
1/2" socket
short extension
ratchet
flathead screwdriver
funnel
bucket to catch coolant
...and most importantly, beer of your choice and something to keep said beer cool in.

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To avoid burns, it is best to do this when the engine is cold.

First, drive your car up on ramps or jack the car up and place it securely on jackstands.

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Next you will need to drain the coolant. Remove the splash shield first (flat plastic guard directly behind the airdam and under the radiator). Then locate the petcock, or drain plug for the radiator. The petcock is located on the driver's side of the radiator, near the bottom. Have a bucket ready to catch the coolant (it will fall directly under the petcock) and turn the petcock counterclockwise to allow the coolant to drain. In the following picture, I am holding the petcock with my hand to give you an idea of it's location.

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Allow the coolant to drain. Remove the radiator cap to allow the coolant to drain more quickly.

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Leave the petcock open and allow the cooling system to drain. While it's draining, you can do just about everything else. Begin by disconnecting the negative battery terminal. I had to use pliers because I couldn't find the appropriate sized wrench for the job (I believe mine is some increment of thirtysecondths that I don't have) but it is recommended to use a box end wrench for the job.

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Next remove the accessory belt. Place a 15mm wrench on the nut at the center of the tensioner pulley, and push hard counterclockwise back towards the firewall. The pulley will give some slack and the belt can slide off.

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No belt!

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Next, use a 1/2" socket to remove the alternator power wire and tuck it safely out of the way.

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Use the same socket to remove the two bolts and one nut on the passenger's side of the alternator. One of these bolts is under the tensioner pulley.

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Now you need to remove the alternator bracket with the same 1/2" socket. There is a nut under the coil packs. Due to space constraints, I used a 13mm wrench to remove this nut.

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The bracket can now be removed. Removing this bracket will expose another 1/2" bolt that will need to be removed. Remove it. Lastly, remove this final bolt pictured. You will need a 10mm socket for this one.

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The alternator can now be pulled free.

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Don't pull too hard though; you still need to remove this electrical connector before the alternator can be completely removed.

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Now you're down to the tensioner itself. Only four more bolts to go. Look at your new tensioner, the holes for the mounting bolts are clearly visible. All are 1/2". You will have two left, the others were removed during the removal of the alternator. Feel for these remaining two; they are along the bottom of the tensioner, one in the middle and one in the back towards the firewall.

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The remaining two bolts that need to be removed are 8mm bolts holding on the heater core hoses. Remove these bolts and pull the coolant hoses out of the sockets in the tensioner. Some coolant may spill.

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Everything free, the tensioner is now ready to be removed:

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Pull on the tensioner from the front and rear carefully. Try not to break the coolant elbow. If you do it's okay, as you've already bought a spare (yes, you have).

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Tensioner removed:

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My parts carnage. Note that I have grouped bolts with the parts they go with:

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The beers are stacking up.

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I managed not to break my coolant elbow for about the fourth time in a row. However, seeing as I have two spares lying around, I decided to go ahead and replace it. The O-rings looked kind of nasty anyway.

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Here's the new tensioner with the new coolant elbow in place.

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There are two coolant ports that have to be lined up to go in the engine. One is built into the tensioner, and is directly under the tensioner pulley. The other is the coolant elbow itself. Look carefully and you will find the holes both of these outlets go into on the engine. The coolant elbow goes into the lower intake manifold. Once you have lined everything up, pop it in place securely, and replace the two (and only two) mounting bolts that you removed from the tensioner earlier. Then, replace the heater hoses and the 8mm bolts holding them in place.

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Reattatch the alternator, starting with the electrical connector that you removed right before taking the alternator out of the engine bay. Keep the bolts loose until you have it properly aligned, then tighten them all securely. Be sure to reattach the alternator bracket and alternator power wire. Once you have done that, you can grab your 15mm wrench and put the belt back on. Be sure to follow the proper belt routing diagram.

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Close the petcock on the radiator by turning it clockwise until it is good and tight, but don't over do it as it is plastic. Then, follow the coolant refill procedure as specified here in techinfo ( http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... f=53&t=159 )

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Be sure to safely dispose of your old coolant.

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All put back together, filled up, and running great!

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I hadn't done one of these in a while, so altogether it was a four beer job, or about 1.5-2 hours.

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:beerchug:
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Last edited by LeSabreUltra on Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Accessory pulley chatter noise...fixed...and with a writeup

Post by Blownville »

Just for reference I would advise anyone against the Dayco one! I had to replace the pulley 3 times in 8 months before I sold the car with a blown tranny! Just wanted to put that out there. Very nice write up on the swap. When I did mine the hardest part was pulling the assembly out. Mine was so stuck in there it took about 15min of rocking and pulling before it poped out.
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Re: Accessory pulley chatter noise...fixed...and with a writeup

Post by LeSabreUltra »

Thanks Blownville, and yes, definitely avoid the Dayco! I found another reason why today when I discovered this:

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Stupid Duralast tensioner stretched my Gatorback. Only 18,000 miles on it too. Oh well, back to the parts store.
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Re: Accessory pulley chatter noise...need help kinda quick!

Post by Icebound »

LeSabreUltra wrote:However I read that several people liked Gates tensioners, and upon looking at one it appeared to be an exact OE copy. Here is my Gates unit with included coolant elbow:

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.

That looks like a plastic tensioner pulley, as per OE in my 97 Bonne. Mine froze at about 120k km (and threw the belt on a Montreal freeway).... whereas the steel one in my 94 is still going well at 233k... I replaced the 97's with a similar steel one, even though it was technically from another year.

Thats a left-hand thread, in case you decide to do it.


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Last edited by Icebound on Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Accessory pulley chatter noise...fixed...and with a writeup

Post by lash »

Good write-up, Dan! :thumbup:

Just three comments:

I believe that the battery post hex is 8mm, but someone here should verify that since it's been a couple years since I've had to touch mine. It's certainly not an increment of 1/32".

Gates may very well have been the OE manufacturer for that pulley assembly. Gates is an OE supplier in addition to their aftermarket products.

I think that there should be a caution added before the removal of the serpentine belt. Something to the effect that people ensure they have a routing diagram on their radiator shroud, in a manual/book, or a clear picture of the routing. While this is not too much of an issue for those of us that have replaced a few now, I had a devil of a time getting the routing right when mine first broke, back in 2005. Someone on BC eventually helped me with the routing that time.
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Re: Accessory pulley chatter noise...fixed...and with a writeup

Post by Mechanical Mike »

8mm or 5/16" will fit the battery cables.
8mm = .315
5/16 = .3125
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Re: Accessory pulley chatter noise...fixed...and with a writeup

Post by LeSabreUltra »

Hmm, my battery post must be somewhat worn, or maybe my 8mm wrench is off...cause I know for sure my 8mm didn't fit! I trust your judgement on that, though.

And yes, I agree about the routing diagram. Like you said I've done it so many times I didn't really even think it would be possible to get it wrong, it's pretty intuitive. But for a first timer it would definitely be a good idea to have a routing diagram on hand.

I think that the pulley is metal. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure but almost there. I just took it on a long trip to NC today and it did great. :wink: I'll give it a look-see sometime and get back to you guys on that. If it is plastic, I will put it on my list of to-do replacements.
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Re: Accessory pulley chatter noise...fixed...and with a writeup

Post by lunchboxx »

Great write up dan! I can vouch for not using the cheap one. I did and it sqeals and chirps unless you keep it constantly lubed. And x2 on mike's suggestion of drawing the belt diagram somewhere. The first time I did it I felt like a monkey doing a math problem :bhuh:
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