Dealer says UIM gasket, shop says leaking coolant elbow!

[skiColorado]

I recently purchased a 1997 Buick LeSabre with 88,000 miles on it. It recently developed a coolant leak that only happens when it is cold out. During the day when it is hot and I am driving, it does not leak, nor does it look like it is leaking. However, I park it over night, and it leaks a puddle of coolant. Now for the specifics, the oil does not look like a milkshake, the car does not smoke, and it seems to drive fine. The dealer wanted $875 to do the gaskets including the coolant elbows, and the shop wanted $261 for doing just the elobow. To be honest I don't trust either the dealer or this other shop I went to. Is there a way I can do a test or confirm if it is one or the other or both?

Side note: The check engine light is on for an EGR code. Also the speedometer does not work and I already tried replacing the VSS with no luck. Any help with these other two issues would be apprecieted!

[bill buttermore]

The external leak is not typically what we expect from bad LIM gaskets or a bad UIM. More likely the coolant elbow or a bad o-ring, seal or gasket on that end of the engine. There are a lot of places to look. I'll see if I can find that image.....

Here we go- this is a '95, but it will be pretty much the same as the '97 LeSabre.



If it is the coolant elbow, the parts will cost about $6. Removing the tensioner assembly is the way to change it without stressing the new part. Might want to get a new seal (o-ring) for the fitting on the other end of the tensioner assembly from your GM dealer while you are at it.

[skiColorado]

Thanks for your answer. My question is, because the car is relatively new to me, and I don't want to have problems with it, should I just do the LIM and the UIM and the elbows? Is just replacing the elbows something I could do with my average mechanical knowledge? Also, I added Bars Stop leak to the cooland with no luck. Probally shoulnd't have, but I thought it might work and be cheaper than the intake costs.

[grandprix104]

Barrs wont stop the intake issues and in my experience just mucks up your system. The coolant elbows are fairly simple to replace and cheap $5.00 or so. You have to remove the belt, alternator and tensioner assembly. 6-7 bolts hold it all together. Someone should post a pic soon explaining exactly where to look for leaks.

[bill buttermore]

The Bars leaks is something for emergencies only, imo. Replacing the elbow (only one on your engine, I think) and the o-ring at position 2 in the photo above should be something you can handle with average mechanical skills. While it is apart and as you will need to empty the radiator anyway, it would be a good time to flush the cooling system to make sure the Bars leak didn't plug up your heater core. If it were mine, I would do the LIM gaskets and the UIM as shown in Techinfo. Read through these articles to get an idea of what is involved and whether you feel capable of the work. Working on the links for you...

Upper Intake Information

Change UIM and LIM gaskets

Coolant Fill Procedure

How to Reverse Flush the Cooling System

[skiColorado]

Thanks so much! You guys are a great help! It looks like the coolant elbow should be straight forward. I am converned that if I attempt the uim and lim that it may take me 10 hours or more. I have a single stall garage. Anyone else have experince replacing the uim and lim and how long did it take? What unknown issues or problems did you run in to?

[gonzo4191]

for a first timer doing lim/uim, don't expect anywhere less than 10 hours, take your time, mark everything and baggie all bolts, nuts etc and you'll be good to go

[JMH1950]

The estimate of 10 hours for a first time is probably pretty close. I've done 2 series 1 LIM gasket replacements and they both took over 8 hours but that included a lot of clean up and some minor porting and polishing also. The series 2 isn't that much different.
If you follow the instuctions in the Tech info section one step at a time, you shouldn't have any problems. You'll save a lot of money that you can use for modding or gas by doing it yourself.

[Barry]

First, check all the areas shown in Bill's photo so you know exaxtly where the leak is. You don't want to assume it is leaking from one area and find out after you think you fixed it that it is still leaking elsewhere. The elbow is not difficult. If you have a FSM, that can be helpful. Put a little antifreeze on the new O ring so it goes in easily. No matter what is leaking, consider doing the UIM and LIM gaskets some time in the not so distant future. You may also want to consider replacing the UIM itself. With 88,000 miles, issuses with these parts may start to develope. By reading the tech info and other articles in this forum you will get an idea what the problems are, and how you can fix them. If you are a novice to average mechanic, doing the UIM and LIM itself will be a bit of a challenge, but is possible. I would set aside at least a weekend. You will need a torque wrench. Also, before you start, take close-up pics of all angles of the engine. It will be helpful during re-assembly. Good luck.

[agrazela]

Agreed with all advice so far. Now my 2 pesos:

As to the estimates you were given:

Did the dealer estimate ($875) include everything: New UIM/UIM gaskets and new LIM gaskets? If so, I guess that's not TOO bad an estimate...for a dealership, anyway. If you go that route (or DIY), insist on the new aluminum-framed LIM gaskets (and perhaps the APN EGR-sleeved UIM). Since half of their estimate is probably obscenely marked-up dealership parts, I wonder if it makes sense to supply the parts yourself? Or if you do supply the parts, to go to the dealer at all?

As for the shop estimate for the coolant elbow alone ($261): IMO that's a rip-off. $5 worth of plastic elbow and maybe $15 worth of coolant, and maybe 1.5-2 hrs' labor. They should be charging about half that estimate.

As to DIY:

Agreed that a full L36 UIM/LIM job is a 10-12 hour job for a first-timer (plus ideally an 8+ hour cure time for RTV). Other than sockets and wrenches, it doesn't take any super-special tools, though, beyond a good inch-pound torque wrench. If you've got basic tools, you can do the whole thing, using the best-known primo parts, for less $$$ than the one shop wants for the elbow alone.

If you do decide it is just the elbow leaking and want to start just with that, as has been said all you really need is the $5 elbow kit, a basic wrench and socket toolkit, maybe a tube of RTV for safety's sake, and about 1.5 to 2 hours to remove and reinstall the alternator and tensioner bracket assembly.

[skiColorado]

Agreed with all advice so far. Now my 2 pesos:

As to the estimates you were given:

Did the dealer estimate ($875) include everything: New UIM/UIM gaskets and new LIM gaskets? If so, I guess that's not TOO bad an estimate...for a dealership, anyway. If you go that route (or DIY), insist on the new aluminum-framed LIM gaskets (and perhaps the APN EGR-sleeved UIM). Since half of their estimate is probably obscenely marked-up dealership parts, I wonder if it makes sense to supply the parts yourself? Or if you do supply the parts, to go to the dealer at all?

As for the shop estimate for the coolant elbow alone ($261): IMO that's a rip-off. $5 worth of plastic elbow and maybe $15 worth of coolant, and maybe 1.5-2 hrs' labor. They should be charging about half that estimate.

As to DIY:

Agreed that a full L36 UIM/LIM job is a 10-12 hour job for a first-timer (plus ideally an 8+ hour cure time for RTV). Other than sockets and wrenches, it doesn't take any super-special tools, though, beyond a good inch-pound torque wrench. If you've got basic tools, you can do the whole thing, using the best-known primo parts, for less $$$ than the one shop wants for the elbow alone.

If you do decide it is just the elbow leaking and want to start just with that, as has been said all you really need is the $5 elbow kit, a basic wrench and socket toolkit, maybe a tube of RTV for safety's sake, and about 1.5 to 2 hours to remove and reinstall the alternator and tensioner bracket assembly.

Just checking, what UIM kit and LIM kit would you recommend? Would this work? http://www.ineedparts.com/index.php?tar ... t_id=17806 and http://www.ineedparts.com/index.php?tar ... t_id=20000 is this the "good" metal framed gasket?

Thanks

[grandprix104]

Thats the one! It is the best on the market and has been designed to resist the heat deterioration that the stock and Dorman types will eventually suffer. It also comes with the gasket which is nice. Very fast shipping too. As for the metal framed gasket, you get that from your dealer or gmpartsdirect.com.

[00Beast]

Here are the Aluminum Framed Gaskets that are recommended. You might want to see what your local dealer will charge, as if it's $60, then you save on shipping. Make sure they're aluminum, not plastic.

[BonneBill]

Just bought a new coolant elbow at the dealer last week. $12 plus tax. FYI.

[JMH1950]

I just re read the symptoms and my old brain kicked into gear like it should have yesterday.

No leaking when running but drips after it cools down........... Sounds just like mine did. After I replaced the gaskets I found that it was the water pump leaking.

Water pump is easy to change when you have the LIM off.

[00Beast]

Just bought a new coolant elbow at the dealer last week. $12 plus tax. FYI.

You got ripped off. New Dorman elbows are $6 for the pair at any parts store, in the HELP! section.

[skiColorado]

Thanks for everyone who contributed to my question. I fixed the problem today by installing a new coolant elbow. I also flushed the coolant system. Hopefully no more problems for a while. My thought is if the lim and uim are not leaking, why fix it? I had the cooling system pressure tested and my friend found no leaks.

[Barry]

Nice job. To answer your question about why you should replace the LIM and UIM gaskets if they aren't leaking is simple. If you wait for them to leak, you may get antifreeze in your oil and it may be there for some time before you know it. This can cause considerable damage to your engine. I would suggest that you start saving for doing the job, or buy the parts over time. Read everything on this forum about how to do the job, take pictures, and maybe plan on doing it next spring. If you hand Dex in your car and have 88,000 miles on it now, it is very possible you will have a problem. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.