PontiacBonnevilleClub.com

My 3.8 non super charged engine has set the following codes that have me baffled on how to find the problem and correct them:

1) Coolant temp. below regulating temp.

2) evap emissions Gross leak. ( I have applied black silicone to the gas cap, and drove for 170 miles, and I still have this code)

3) maximum adapt. and long shift. P1811


I replaced the coolant temp. sensor and there is no correction. The engine warms up quickly and temp. gauge never goes above the middle of the gauge and stays at the 220 degree mark., even after a 3 hr. road trip at hwy speeds. The engine idols fine, accelerates fine, I see no issue? so why this code?

With The other codes I'm just as clue less.
Help!

Have you cleared the codes to see if they return? I would speculate that some of these are older codes that were never cleared from the history.

1) I was going to suggest a thermostat before reading further. But that truly is weird. Maybe once you clear it they won't return.

3) Are you experiencing rougher shifts? Your PCS must have failed. Time for a shift kit.

The long shift code can be caused my a malfunctioning PCS, valve body gunk, low fluid, and a few other things that are more serious. I would advise verifying your trans fluid looks healthy and is at the correct level(if those newer things even have dipsticks).

They do have a dipstick. If the trans fluid smells burnt or looks brown, to the garbage with it. A pan drop and refill would do wonders.

Excellent ideas every one , thank you all. I have answers below and some new questions for you, watch for the question marks and i don't know smilies.

The fluid does not smell burnt and is still red, not brown. Fluid level it is up to the full mark.

Interesting that one of you mentioned that the codes could be from long ago and were never cleared. That could be the case, as i didn't clear the codes for almost a year now, b/c I was told from guys at the auto parts stores here locally that, they will clear them selves once the trouble is repaired. is this true? the codes will be cleared automatically? or is it folk lore?

But out of desperation, last wed. evening I filled the tank and silicon-ed the gas cap and installed THE CAP WITH THE SILICONE ON IT. To assure I had a tight seal, and thus perhaps tell me if i had a leaking gas cap or not. Thursday my wife drove the car for 148 highway miles. That same Thursday night I had the autozone guy check the codes to see if any had cleared, and none had. at that moment, out of pure frustration, I asked for the test unit, and I cleared the memory! Friday , my wife drove the car, this time for 148 hwy miles, and 40 miles off highway. Presently the check engine light has not come on! So pleased with that good news!.. I took the car Friday evening to the auto inspection center, in hope it would pass the required annual inspection and I could be cleared to get my new license sticker for 2013. But the technician, after examining the car, came to me with Questions of : has anyone worked on the car ? have any parts been replaced? Some one has cleared the computer's memory !, did you do it? and you'll have to drive the car for more miles before another 'set' of checks is established,... and so I can not pass your car at this time, please drive your car and come back to see me. I was pissed! and fuming!
SO I ask you guys,: would what the tech, guy asked of me, correct and proper to ask me?..and is it any of his business to know why the memory was cleared? and by who?
And this talk he gave about another 'set' of checks has to be established, is this correct? or simply smoke up my ass?

I will share with you that:
There is a slow leak at the seal where the axle comes out and goes to the wheel. I say Slow because i can usually add a quart of fluid every month or two. I placed a newspaper under the driver's side, and left it over night, in the morning a 10 inch stain was evident on the newspaper. Ive been adding a quart of fluid at this rate for 6 months now.
and keeping that bit of info in mind.....
My car repair / service records indicate that: In April of 2010 at 78,900 miles, I changed the tranny fluid and filter. The car now has 165,000 miles on the odometer. The filter was covered with thick grey/ silver colored matter, as was the pan. I have since Wondered, what that stuff was from? Will this info change any of your thoughts, and advice / suggestions for me?

yes there is hard shifting present, I may as well call it slam shifting! it happens during in town driving, not highway. But that is better for the clutch packs is this not?.... since now, there is less slippage as they apply, correct? ....just like you want in racing trannys, correct?

Would changing the fluid and filter once again, help that much even if the PCS is bad?

What is a PCS any way?
and Is the replacing of the PCS, something I can do; in my driveway; with the car on ramps?

does this transmission require the dextron type 6 fluid? ......I read in the manual to use type H, but I can't locate any of that type on the shelves of the auto part stores.

Thanks guys, I can't wait to read your replies!

flywelder wrote: I filled the tank and silicon-ed the gas cap and installed THE CAP WITH THE SILICONE ON IT. To assure I had a tight seal, and thus perhaps tell me if i had a leaking gas cap or not. Thursday my wife drove the car for 148 highway miles.

I'm currently playing with diagnosing a large leak on the emissions system that occasionally pops up. The computer only checks for the leak when certain parameters are being met. One of those is a tank between some lower and upper limits--e.g., 15% and 75% (these are probably not correct because I didn't check my FSM). So with the tank filled it won't rerun a check until the tank is less than 3/4 on the gauge. Also, the engine has to be between coolant temps when started. So it typically gets run with a warm but not full temp engine after a short drive and when the car is restarted after sitting. There are other parameters that have to be true, such as a certain ambient air temp, before the vacuum is applied to the tank.

Things to check: I had a crack in the hose on the engine that goes from the throttle body to the evap valve. It's a soft rubber U-shaped piece at the left side front of the UIM on my leSabre. It was cracked and leaking. That means the vacuum when applied to the tank was low because of this leak.

Then it happened a few weeks later. I had already cleaned and preened my gas cap tube and o-ring with vaseline for a good seal.

So next is to check the rubber tube under the car from the canister to the valve that closes to prevent air intake when the vacuum is applied to test for a leak. That valve has given trouble for some but I'm interested in the rubber tube there being intact and not leaking.

Next will be checking both of those valves for consistent operation with 12 volts. The one on the engine opens with 12 volts applied to pull air through the cannister charcoal and the tank while the one that vents the canister closes with 12 volts applied.

I wish I had a different gas cap to substitute temporarily.

Additional engine cycles will be needed for computer to run all of the diagnostics.

The codes won't "clear" themselves automatically. They will just stop causing the CEL to turn on after the conditions that caused them is corrected. They will remain in the computer. As far as I know, there is no law stating that it's a crime to clear your history. I did a quick search and could find nothing indicating that there is a law against it.

I do recall that back in the day, Ben took his 97 in for inspection in Arizona and had just cleared the codes. He had the same results. They wouldn't pass him because all of the checks hadn't been completed. I'm sorry that this happened to you. I was unaware that you had an inspection that you were going to.

It's not so much about how far the car was driven, but the number of hot/cold/run cycles it's gone through. Just as when you fix an issue, it takes maybe 3 to 5 cycles where certain conditions have been met for the CEL to turn off.

I sure do love living where there are no vehicle inspections....

Has your CEL remained off?

That was very good info every one. Thanks!

SO here is a update: for Sat. 4-27-2013
The CEL has remained off since the past Thursday.
The car drives excellent. gas mileage is 28 mpg on the hwy.
On sat. I removed the gas cap and filled the tank with fuel, and installed a new gas cap.
Engine idols fine and smoothly.
All gauges are indicating normal readings.
Car has been driven 335 miles since Thursday.
Transmission ...AT TIMES....up shifts very hard around town. it down shifts fine and smoothly. Shifts well and smoothly at hwy speeds. Shifts to passing gear smoothly and quickly with no issues at all to speak of.
is it not both horrible and frustrating today, not knowing if, parts you replace have corrected the issue or not? and having to wait on unknown amount of start up and stop periods ? ... which is so different from years past when you knew right away if your efforts were successful.

Yet, Some one at GM knows how many of these 'periods' have been preset and WHY! must be a trade secrete or something! and all thee frustrating experiences are sold to me under the camouflage of "it will make my life better!"

flywelder wrote: Transmission ...AT TIMES....up shifts very hard around town. it down shifts fine and smoothly. Shifts well and smoothly at hwy speeds. Shifts to passing gear smoothly and quickly with no issues at all to speak of.
:

I had a similar problem, so bought and added Lucas Transmission conditioner last week.

WOW! Instant improvement with shifting across the board!!!
Was planning a Transgo shift kit install, but think I'll wait on that for now....

Just a thought for your Tranny issue...Good Luck,

MW

General Motors Driving Cycle

A complete driving cycle should perform diagnostics on all systems. A complete driving cycle can be done in under fifteen minutes.

To perform an OBDII Driving cycle do the following:
•Cold Start. In order to be classified as a cold start the engine coolant temperature must be below 50°C (122°F) and within 6°C (11°F) of the ambient air temperature at startup. Do not leave the key on prior to the cold start or the heated oxygen sensor diagnostic may not run.

2.Idle. The engine must be run for two and a half minutes with the air conditioner on and rear defroster on. The more electrical load you can apply the better. This will test the O2 heater, Passive Air, Purge "No Flow", Misfire and if closed loop is achieved, Fuel Trim.

3.Accelerate. Turn off the air conditioner and all the other loads and apply half throttle until 88km/hr (55mph) is reached. During this time the Misfire, Fuel Trim, and Purge Flow diagnostics will be performed.

4.Hold Steady Speed. Hold a steady speed of 88km/hr (55mph) for 3 minutes. During this time the O2 response, air Intrusive, EGR, Purge, Misfire, and Fuel Trim diagnostics will be performed.

5.Decelerate. Let off the accelerator pedal. Do not shift, touch the brake or clutch. It is important to let the vehicle coast along gradually slowing down to 32km/hr (20 mph). During this time the EGR, Purge and Fuel Trim diagnostics will be performed.

6.Accelerate. Accelerate at 3/4 throttle until 88-96 km/hr (55-60mph). This will perform the same diagnostics as in step 3.

7.Hold Steady Speed. Hold a steady speed of 88km/hr (55mph) for five minutes. During this time, in addition to the diagnostics performed in step 4, the catalyst monitor diagnostics will be performed. If the catalyst is marginal or the battery has been disconnected, it may take 5 complete driving cycles to determine the state of the catalyst.

8.Decelerate. This will perform the same diagnostics as in step 5. Again, don't press the clutch or brakes or shift gears.

Reprinted on OBDII web site courtesy of General Motors Corporation
© General Motors Corporation
From:
http://www.obdii.com/drivecycle.html

Copying for future reference. Much appreciated.

Yes, much appreciated ! I made a copy of that test procedure also.

An update on my Bonneville:
The check engine light came back on tonight. I will discover Tuesday evening what code it has set, and inform you also of same.

Thanks mrwildroot, I will also try the Lucas Transmission conditioner. by chance can you tell me how much of this fluid you added to the tranny?

flywelder wrote:Thanks mrwildroot, I will also try the Lucas Transmission conditioner. by chance can you tell me how much of this fluid you added to the tranny?

Put half the bottle (not sure of volume...it is locked in a shed outside right now...)
It is time for a fluid/filter change, and the level was a bit low, so it took a fair amount.
The improvement is astounding!
I'll add the other half when i change out the fluid/filter. Don't think I'll ever run my bonnie again without some in the tranny.
MW

Thanks MW.
Half a bottle of Lucas is in my tranny now. and ill see tonight if the shifts have improved.
Now An update: I crawled under the car and attempted to locate any vacuum leaks in rubber hoses and the canister. I used starting fluid and sprayed every connection and hose. and i noted NO difference in the engine RPM or sound. I did same under the hood and found No change to the engine. So at this point I cannot find any hole or crack in any line or fitting, and so will assume there is none. so then, where is the large leak that is being detected by the computer coming from?
1) Can anyone share a link to where I can see what the name is and the location is , of all the electronic and pollution control 'things' under the hood and on this engine are located?

2) also what is attached to the gas tank that is related to the evap system and fuel system.
What would cause a large air leek in the evap system?

3) and if the Vapor Canister Purge Solenoid Valve is defective, the Check Engine Light will illuminate to Set with Small Leak Diagnosis. So what would cause a large leak?

Well as far clear codes the only issue you will have if you go for emission test and the computer was reset under 100 miles ago. or at least in Nashville,tn. The code I am not sure about my 03 for while kept coming up with evap code. The only time the code would go away was when added gas. even after replace the fuel cap. Which in my case seems to have fixed it

Thanks !
Here is an update.
the tranny is shifting beautifully with the Lucas fluid in it! WOW! THAT IS SUPER! Plus the tranny code has disappeared! Once again thank you MW!!

Out if frustration, I finally caved in and took the car to a mechanic. he pulled two codes.
One is the evap system, gross leak.
2nd. code he said indicates the converter is malfunctioning.

he Recommends I replace the converter. $250.00
Mechanic said , evap system is not working all the time but only at certain times, so spraying fluids on the lines and fittings will tell me nothing.

he then said, he checked everything on the evap system. and even 'smoked' the system, and found no leaks and no problems. he then checked the codes again. and the evap code had vanished! yet the convertor code was and is still there.....odd he added.
he cleared all the set codes! He can't explane why the evap code has vanished, when he replaced no parts or hoses.
So I paid him the $26.00 bill he had for me.
SO back at home, I read online that a 5% clogged converter will cause the oxygen senors to indicate the convert is failing! and to correct this, just mix 1 gal. of lacquer thinner to half a tank of fuel and drive the car for 100 miles or more. The converter will have been cleaned and again reach the high operating temp. needed to convert the NOx gasses and thus satisfy the oxygen sensor and the code vanishes and you can pass the inspection test.
Any one hear of this or had success with this procedure?

Do you know the actual DTC number from your mechanic? It will read P0xxx generally for engine codes. P0440 would be my guess, but to be sure, the code number is required.

flywelder wrote:Thanks !
Here is an update.
the tranny is shifting beautifully with the Lucas fluid in it! WOW! THAT IS SUPER! Plus the tranny code has disappeared! Once again thank you MW!!

Amazing the difference, isn't it!
Glad I could assist on at least one of your problems.
Good Luck with the others,

MW