PontiacBonnevilleClub.com

Especially harofreak00, willwren, 00Beast, Mr Brittmore & jrs3800 and any other of the gearheads.

I went to move the old "green monster" into a cooler place Saturday afternoon to try and finish trouble shooting the ECC. When I attempted to start it, it backfired through the throttle body. I let it set for a bit and tried again, same outcome. I waited until Sunday and tried again, this time the starter didn't even want to turn the engine over. I thought it might be the ICM, nope. Tried two and even took them to be tested at O'Reilly. Pulled off the odd number valve cover to inspect the top of the valve train. I did not observer anything unusual. I am going to finish (I hope) getting the even numbered cylinder valve cover off this evening. I believe that the problem is the timing chain has jumped a tooth or 2. It was replaced at 150k miles. The car now has 281K miles on it.

I have prices on L36(? - 99 LeSabre/Park Avenue, Bonneville, GP, Delta 88). $650 at one place, $550 plus core at another. The engine in the car is original with 281K on it.

The question(s) is/are
1) Replace the timing chain, gears seals and sensors (parts about $300)
2) Do an engine swap. If I do the engine swap it will not be a low mileage engine. I would think I need to replace the front & rear main seals and everything on the front of the engine.
3) Part out the car
4) Sell it for scrape.

I'm actually getting tired of most of the "crappy" replacement parts failing. The OEM parts didn't start failing 'til around 150K miles.

The body has no rust and looks really nice. The transmission as never had anything done except fluid & filter changed on a semi-regular schedule and has never given me any trouble. It has 1 brand new Goodyear Assurance Touring, two almost new, and one half way through it's life. The ball joints will need replacing later this year along with the hubs. I thought if I keep the car I would do jrs3800 project of changing out the knuckles so I can install dual piston calipers.

Any and all input is welcome. Thanks in advance!! - BC

Is this the 92 SSE? You'll want an L27 or 92-95 L67 short or long block if you go the swap route.

Have you checked if there is gas in the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line?

No because it acts like it is attempting to fire when the piston is half-way up on the compression stroke sometimes and sometimes while an exhaust valve is open, I think. It acts very similar to the way it did when the ICM's failed.

But I will when it cools off later. I'll let you know what happens. - BC

Did you check the MAF?...I know I had a similar problem with a Park Ave popping back through the air cleaner box years ago and that's what it ended up being.

Is the fuel pressure regulator leaking fuel from the vac port?

If the chain skipped a tooth, I would think you would get a cam sensor error?
Any codes?

A L36 swap isn't the easiest on the 92. The 95+ EGR wouldn't work on the 92 pcm and there are probably a couple other things I'm not remembering. The L27 bin/pcm will start and run a L36 though. you would need to get it tuned from there.

1oldman wrote:I thought if I keep the car I would do jrs3800 project of changing out the knuckles so I can install dual piston calipers.

Don did this too?

I don't believe Don did the dual piston calipers, just you.

Okay, let me try and answer all the questions.

=>J Wikoff: Have you checked if there is gas in the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line?

Yes I checked. There is no fuel in the vacuum line to the FPR. While I was at it I checked to see if there was fuel under pressure on the relief valve, which there was.

=>wdean: Did you check the MAF?...

No, I have not checked the MAFS. I will pull it in the morning and give it a good cleaning. Carb cleaner, then MAFS cleaner.

=> 95naSTA:
1) Is the fuel pressure regulator leaking fuel from the vac port?
2)Any codes?

1)There is no smell of fuel under the hood until it back fires. On inspection, I see no fuel leakage anywhere under the hood.
2)I don't have an OBD code scanner, so I will either have to wait till the youngest son comes with his or go get the one at O'Reilly. The engine does not run at all. I have a key that I can plug into the OBD port, but to put it mildly, there is no way I am "swift enough" to count the flashes - that's what happens when you get old and senile - ha ha.

=>00Beast:I don't believe Don did the dual piston calipers, just you.

I believe the police package '00+ Impalas have dual piston front calipers. I could very well be wrong, in which case, I wouldn't do the swap.

Okay, so I need to do two things in the morning:
1) Clean the MAFS
2) Try and pull the error codes out of the PCM.

I tried to get the valve cover off the even cylinder bank to inspect the upper portion of the valve train, but the engine hoist bracket is in the way. I would have to pull at the least the UIM and that means removing coolant (throttle body) from the system. At the moment, that's not gonna happen.

Thanks for the help guys. I'll let you know what happens in the AM, I hope - ha ha. - BC

Remove the vacuum line from the pressure regulator on the rail, it's a disc that has the vac line coming out of it. If it smells like fuel the FPR is bad.

This doesn't belong in General Chat. It's a mechanical problem.

Why on earth are we discussing swapping a motor when you haven't even figured out what's wrong? If you have good compression on all 6, repair the problem. Fuel and spark are the first things you check.

Don't clean the MAF with carb cleaner. Use only MAF cleaner.

Turn the engine by hand to TDC #1 compression and make sure both valves on #1 are closed. No spring compression, and rockers should be a bit loose.

renchjeep wrote:Don't clean the MAF with carb cleaner. Use only MAF cleaner.

Turn the engine by hand to TDC #1 compression and make sure both valves on #1 are closed. No spring compression, and rockers should be a bit loose.

I'll have to remove at least the UIM and probably the LIM too to do that and that's not going to happen for a bit. The car doesn't run and I'm not in much shape to pull them. - BC

00Beast wrote:Remove the vacuum line from the pressure regulator on the rail, it's a disc that has the vac line coming out of it. If it smells like fuel the FPR is bad.

Already did that - no smell of fuel anywhere until it back fires through the TB and no leakage. Already checked the vacuum line to the FPR, no fuel. - BC

The engine hoise bracket is on the exhaust manifold studs. Easier to remove than the UIM.

1oldman wrote:

renchjeep wrote:Don't clean the MAF with carb cleaner. Use only MAF cleaner.

Turn the engine by hand to TDC #1 compression and make sure both valves on #1 are closed. No spring compression, and rockers should be a bit loose.

I'll have to remove at least the UIM and probably the LIM too to do that and that's not going to happen for a bit. The car doesn't run and I'm not in much shape to pull them. - BC

I thought you said you had the valve covers off, or at least the front one.

I did have and easy to pull the odd numbered valve cover. Not physical enough to get the even number cover off as at least the UIM has to come off. I don't see well enough to tell when the tic on the pulley is 'spose to be at TDC either.

The battery is now almost dead and have the battery charger on it. I cleaned the MASF and used the "loaner" OBD code reader. Unfortunately, it's one that doesn't like my OBD1/PCM. The one O'Reilly had (Code Scout) would read the errors in just a few seconds. Even the youngest son's Snap-On Solus(sp?) has trouble reading the error codes out of this PCM. - BC

willwren wrote:This doesn't belong in General Chat. It's a mechanical problem.

Why on earth are we discussing swapping a motor when you haven't even figured out what's wrong? If you have good compression on all 6, repair the problem. Fuel and spark are the first things you check.

Actually, I think we may have gotten off topic and the original post intent was:

The question(s) is/are
1) Replace the timing chain, gears seals and sensors (parts about $300)
2) Do an engine swap. If I do the engine swap it will not be a low mileage engine. I would think I need to replace the front & rear main seals and everything on the front of the engine.
3) Part out the car
4) Sell it for scrape.


not try and help with fixing it, but I have no problem with the help and it is much appreciated. I will bet a dollar to a doughnut that the problem is the timing chain has jumped a tooth or two. I am tiring of the parts failing sooner than the ones that were used to build the car. I figure about 150K miles before you have to start using after market parts, at least that's the way it was on the ole "green monster". After that, find a good used car with 50K or less miles, put about 100k more miles on it and start over. - BC

1oldman wrote:Actually, I think we may have gotten off topic and the original post intent was:

The question(s) is/are
1) Replace the timing chain, gears seals and sensors (parts about $300)
Why do this when you do not even know if it is the problem.......this is throwing money at it and hoping it fixes it

2) Do an engine swap. If I do the engine swap it will not be a low mileage engine. I would think I need to replace the front & rear main seals and everything on the front of the engine.
Why even think this before ts the old one. You would just replace your problem with someone elses.

3) Part out the car
This is nothing more than your desire and opinion. Me personally, I would fix the problems and drive the wheels off of it.........because that is what I like to do.

4) Sell it for scrape.
See #3

not try and help with fixing it, but I have no problem with the help and it is much appreciated. I will bet a dollar to a doughnut that the problem is the timing chain has jumped a tooth or two. I am tiring of the parts failing sooner than the ones that were used to build the car. I figure about 150K miles before you have to start using after market parts, at least that's the way it was on the ole "green monster". After that, find a good used car with 50K or less miles, put about 100k more miles on it and start over. - BC

If you already had the front (odd cylinder) valve cover off, pull the plug from the cylinder closes to the right front wheel and turn the motor until the piston is at the top. Use a soft tipped item to feel in the spark plug hole to check. Then see if both valves on that cylinder are closed. If they are both closed, then the timing has not jumped. I have had several of these motors apart and even had a few problems myself and I have never seen one jump time. They have steel sprockets and chain, I have seen the dampers wear, but they still kept time. I doubt this is your problem.

You can either take the advice from here to fix your car, or do what you want and replace the engine or scrap it etc. We can not tell you what to do with it, only suggest what to do to try to fix it from our knowledge of previous issues.

I don't know how to answer this....

You need to do as stated first... Yank that front valve cover again, get the #1 TDC and check the rockers... However I seriously doubt you have jumped time...

when you turn the ignition on does the fuel pump run for 2 seconds?

The last few times you tried to start it, it backfired through the intake correct?

Is there anything else you can think of to add?

myfirstbonnie wrote:

1oldman wrote:Actually, I think we may have gotten off topic and the original post intent was:

The question(s) is/are
1) Replace the timing chain, gears seals and sensors (parts about $300)
Why do this when you do not even know if it is the problem.......this is throwing money at it and hoping it fixes it

2) Do an engine swap. If I do the engine swap it will not be a low mileage engine. I would think I need to replace the front & rear main seals and everything on the front of the engine.
Why even think this before ts the old one. You would just replace your problem with someone elses.

3) Part out the car
This is nothing more than your desire and opinion. Me personally, I would fix the problems and drive the wheels off of it.........because that is what I like to do.

4) Sell it for scrape.
See #3

not try and help with fixing it, but I have no problem with the help and it is much appreciated. I will bet a dollar to a doughnut that the problem is the timing chain has jumped a tooth or two. I am tiring of the parts failing sooner than the ones that were used to build the car. I figure about 150K miles before you have to start using after market parts, at least that's the way it was on the ole "green monster". After that, find a good used car with 50K or less miles, put about 100k more miles on it and start over. - BC

If you already had the front (odd cylinder) valve cover off, pull the plug from the cylinder closes to the right front wheel and turn the motor until the piston is at the top. Use a soft tipped item to feel in the spark plug hole to check. Then see if both valves on that cylinder are closed. If they are both closed, then the timing has not jumped. I have had several of these motors apart and even had a few problems myself and I have never seen one jump time. They have steel sprockets and chain, I have seen the dampers wear, but they still kept time. I doubt this is your problem.

You can either take the advice from here to fix your car, or do what you want and replace the engine or scrap it etc. We can not tell you what to do with it, only suggest what to do to try to fix it from our knowledge of previous issues.

Okay, patience guys. If I didn't want your advice, I wouldn't be here. You gotta remember your dealing with a broke down old man. The ambient temprature of the coolant in the radiator in the garage is 100F+, and that's with the car not running in almost a week. I've been doing the best I can with the advice your giving, but it's tough when the spirit is willing and the body goes WTF???????

You want to make my day? Get me through this so I don't have to replace the engine or rebuild it. As far as driving the wheels off it, so far I think I've done a pretty good job of that. The ole car has 281k+ miles on it and doesn't look so bad either.

Besides you must not have read what came at the end of 4
[[ but I have no problem with the help and it is much appreciated. ]]

You guys are kind touchy. Kinda like a couple of techs I use to work with at Compaq. Reading things into something no meant. - BC

Jrs3800 wrote:I don't know how to answer this....

You need to do as stated first... Yank that front valve cover again, get the #1 TDC and check the rockers... However I seriously doubt you have jumped time...

when you turn the ignition on does the fuel pump run for 2 seconds?

The last few times you tried to start it, it backfired through the intake correct?

Is there anything else you can think of to add?

Yes, it backfires through the TB when you try to start it. Sometimes the starter will not turn the engine over. I've run the battery down and I have the charger on it now.

Despite what some think, do appreciate the help. I've been trying the best I can to do as instructed and provide information as requested. I admit I don't get the point sometimes (no longer the sharpest knife in the drawer and haven't been for a while). - BC