ICM tested bad. Update! *FIXED*

[murderedout]

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again. You are describing the exact symptoms of a Crankshaft Position Sensor Failure. It starts as a no start condition when warm, and eventually affects driveability, leaving you stuck on the side of the road. You never get a code, especially in that generation, just headaches.

I believe you!!! I was doing more research and my heat symptoms match right up to it. So HOW DO I DO IT! pictures would be helpful. I have no ”power or air tools”

[RJolly87]

Once the harmonic balancer comes off, it is just right there.
http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... =53&t=8267

When it failed in ours, we had to go out and buy a 24inch breaker bar. That, coupled with a prybar jammed in the flywheel is what it took on ours.

[murderedout]

how do you set this air gap thing? i kinda understand hat it is but how do i know where to set it to when i reinstall it?

[RJolly87]

There is a special tool that is mentioned in the service manuals, but most eyeball it. Just be sure it is not scraping the rings on the back of the balancer, and you should be fine. Center it up as much as you can.

[murderedout]

There is a special tool that is mentioned in the service manuals, but most eyeball it. Just be sure it is not scraping the rings on the back of the balancer, and you should be fine. Center it up as much as you can.

is this going to be an al day thing or does it depend? i was reading somewhere that instead of using your own force on the breaker bar to break the bolt loose you can bump the engine and use that as your "force" to break the bolt loose. Also whats the deal with most parts stores not having the correct puller size bolts. Is there a possibility i can just wiggle or pull the balancer off by hand

[RJolly87]

It took us 2 days to get the bolt out. Sometimes the starter works, sometimes it don't. The balancer holes use a non standard size, so plan ahead. You will need a puller, because it is bolted and press fit.

Get everything lined up before hand, and you can make this a couple hour job at most. Once we figured it out, we used the breaker bar from the top, with the prybar jammed in the inspection cover, locking the engine from turning. Being an 89, you will not have the torque axis mount in the way to keep you from doing it from the top.

Cutting corners will not save you time on this one.

[murderedout]

so i should go to lowes and get some diffrent sized bolts? also i dont have a breaker bar should i invest in one? im going to sears today or tommorrow and lowes today to get the bolts im just confused on what size? 2 days for you scares me because i never have "luck" when it comes to things going right...

WILL THIS WORK? http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... ockType=G1

[MattStrike]

That looks about right.

[murderedout]

once i get the HB off how do i re-install it? any special way? i know your not sopossed to use a hammer.

[RJolly87]

so i should go to lowes and get some diffrent sized bolts? also i dont have a breaker bar should i invest in one? im going to sears today or tommorrow and lowes today to get the bolts im just confused on what size? 2 days for you scares me because i never have "luck" when it comes to things going right...

WILL THIS WORK? http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... ockType=G1

It was 2 days for us to figure it out. We tried electric impact wrenches (actually fried one on it) cracked sockets, etc. We ended up getting 6 point impact sockets.

[MattStrike]

once i get the HB off how do i re-install it? any special way? i know your not sopossed to use a hammer.

Slide it on as far as you can and use the bolt to do the rest. It helps to hit the inside of the HB shaft with a brass wire wheel and some grease to clean up that mating surface. Might have to wiggle it back and forth a little.

[murderedout]

Ok im doing this tommorrow. None of the stores around me has a ac delco cps so is BWD or delphi ok? which is better
i have heard people putting cheap ones in and they break within months. Nick

Update. did the cps today went really smooth, same problem though car dies at idle and wont restart until enine is cooled down got a code 22 and code 23 but no SES light?

[MattStrike]

Does the car idle smoothly and rev up freely when it is running? Does it only die if it's left to idle?

I think it is best to eliminate 'easy things to check that don't cost money' that may be a factor, this may take a while. The two SES codes are stored in history, and could be intermittant codes or something from a long time ago. Clear these codes by disconnecting the battery for about 30 minutes (exact interval?). Check that the codes are cleared, then start the car and let it idle & die, then check the codes again. If anything came back, then we can start to diagnose those.

In order for the engine to run it needs three things: air, fuel, spark. The computer controls the fuel and spark, and has some control over idle speed using the IAC valve to adjust the amount of air flowing into the engine. It runs cold, so we know it's getting all three at that time, this is during a state called 'open loop' where the computer ignores certain sensors (Oxygen sensor primarily) and uses lookup tables to determine the air/fuel ratio. When the exhaust gets hot enough for the Oxygen sensor to read, it will switch to 'closed loop' and use the oxygen sensor to control the air/fuel ratio. If you keep the SES light tester installed and start the engine, the SES light will blink to tell you if it's in open loop (rapid blink) or closed loop (slow blink), you can use this to verify if the computer switches to closed loop then shuts down or if they are unrelated. Also verify that the ignition coils are sparking during the no-start condition (remove one boot at the coil and watch for spark during the attempt to start) and use a test light to make sure the fuel injectors are getting the signal to fire as well (use any 12v auto bulb with a positive and negative lead solder on and put in place of any injector, it will blink if the computer is telling the injector to fire). Remove the Idle Air Control valve and inspect it for a loose plunger, corroded connector or severe carbon buildup, test restart with IAC not plugged in and then again plugged in. Disconnect the oxygen sensor connector and test restart. Do this for the air temp sensor, coolant temp sensor, mass airflow sensor.

Let us know what you find out; I'm hoping to eliminate the possibility of heat soak by making sure we still have spark and fuel when it refuses to start.

[sandrock]

What style ignition do you have? The Magnavox or the Delco? The Magnavox has one solid coil pack with 6 towers, the Delco has 3 coils with 2 towers each.

I'm betting one of two things....the ignition control module is going bad, or it's getting too hot. A quick fix is to take it off the mount, clean the mount really good, and use heatsink paste to go between it and the module. The mount actually triples as a mount, heatsink, and ground point for the ICM.

And the ICM gets its cues from both crank and cam sensors. Another thing to check will be the harness that connects the ICM to the crank and cam sensors.

[murderedout]

What style ignition do you have? The Magnavox or the Delco? The Magnavox has one solid coil pack with 6 towers, the Delco has 3 coils with 2 towers each.

I'm betting one of two things....the ignition control module is going bad, or it's getting too hot. A quick fix is to take it off the mount, clean the mount really good, and use heatsink paste to go between it and the module. The mount actually triples as a mount, heatsink, and ground point for the ICM.

And the ICM gets its cues from both crank and cam sensors. Another thing to check will be the harness that connects the ICM to the crank and cam sensors.

its the old magnavox coil. i think that may be getting to hot and freaking out or its fried. i had it replaced over a year ago. might have been 2? And im sure it was replaced with a cheapo.
so im going to have it tested tommorrow and cross my fingers that it fails!

[murderedout]

TOOK THE ICM TO AUTOZONE TESTED BAD 4 TIMES IN A ROW!!! ORDERED A NEW ONE WILL BE HERE SATURDAY OR MONDAY CROSSED FINGERS!

[MattStrike]

Isn't there a write up on how to swap to a delco ICM? I know the LG3 was direct swap between them. And if one coil fails you don't have to replace all three.

I have an '89 PA with over 240k on the original Magnavox ICM...

[sandrock]

Surprised nobody caught that sooner (including myself). Even though you have a new module coming to you, I'd still gather up all the Delco parts for the next time this happens. Magnavox DIS boxes are getting harder to come by, AC Delco modules will be here for long while to come.

[murderedout]

i got the one right below the ac delco part AND IT WAS USED ac delco $229.99 new one with upgrades was $127.00 shipped with discount

FIXED IT!!! put a wells icm in it, had it wired wrond the first time fixed that then it fired right up and been driving it for a while and letting it idle, sit in traffic etc. so i guess time will tell but so far its idlein better and driving better WHOO HOO

Now i just need to fix my negative batt. terminal i hate those side posts i think i stripped it.

[nailbomb3]

Does the car idle smoothly and rev up freely when it is running? Does it only die if it's left to idle?

I think it is best to eliminate 'easy things to check that don't cost money' that may be a factor, this may take a while. The two SES codes are stored in history, and could be intermittant codes or something from a long time ago. Clear these codes by disconnecting the battery for about 30 minutes (exact interval?). Check that the codes are cleared, then start the car and let it idle & die, then check the codes again. If anything came back, then we can start to diagnose those.

In order for the engine to run it needs three things: air, fuel, spark. The computer controls the fuel and spark, and has some control over idle speed using the IAC valve to adjust the amount of air flowing into the engine. It runs cold, so we know it's getting all three at that time, this is during a state called 'open loop' where the computer ignores certain sensors (Oxygen sensor primarily) and uses lookup tables to determine the air/fuel ratio. When the exhaust gets hot enough for the Oxygen sensor to read, it will switch to 'closed loop' and use the oxygen sensor to control the air/fuel ratio. If you keep the SES light tester installed and start the engine, the SES light will blink to tell you if it's in open loop (rapid blink) or closed loop (slow blink), you can use this to verify if the computer switches to closed loop then shuts down or if they are unrelated. Also verify that the ignition coils are sparking during the no-start condition (remove one boot at the coil and watch for spark during the attempt to start) and use a test light to make sure the fuel injectors are getting the signal to fire as well (use any 12v auto bulb with a positive and negative lead solder on and put in place of any injector, it will blink if the computer is telling the injector to fire). Remove the Idle Air Control valve and inspect it for a loose plunger, corroded connector or severe carbon buildup, test restart with IAC not plugged in and then again plugged in. Disconnect the oxygen sensor connector and test restart. Do this for the air temp sensor, coolant temp sensor, mass airflow sensor.

Let us know what you find out; I'm hoping to eliminate the possibility of heat soak by making sure we still have spark and fuel when it refuses to start.

Hey! I think you can help me out with something. I have replaced two 02 sensors in the last month. Looking at the last one on my shops MODIS scanner, the voltage was contant so we knew that one was bad.

Got another one and put that in tonight. What is an SES light tester and where can I get one so I can SEE if im going into closed loop. I can exactly borrow that MODIS scanner and drive around with it, the shop kind of needs the thing.

Thanks