KR elimination Volume 2 (2000 SSEi)

[PDXGTP]

Hello,
I had a chance to look at your logs.
A few things.
I must apologize, I drift in and out of your posts so I loose track of what point your at, again I apologize.

- I notice once you go into PE mode your afr goes way down into the 10's 10.8 & 10'6 for commanded afr. You have some parameters that are causing that. Again, its comanded afr which means this is what the program is looking for.
I'd try to figure out what parameter is doing that and adjust it accordingly.

- As noted by another member the timing advance drops to zero* during the 1>2 shift. so does the IDC's. and your boost drops.

I got a question:
Are you using tuning tips/BKM's (best known methodes) from different people at the same time? there are many good ways to tune, but I'd stick with one at a time until your completely done. Then save the file, then start from scratch with someone's bkm's.

all your part throttle driving looks good, your long & short terms look good.
What I do like is once you enter PE mode your long & short terms instantly go to 0.0. Excellent work. I honestly wouldn't try to ge them any better, move along to something more troubling in the tune. frames 4366your in part throttle commanding 14.7.. frame 4367 yo enter PE mode and the fuel trims dial straight to 0.0. again, nice work.

it all looks good until you commanded afr goes below 10.9~10.8 -ish That's when the KR comes and your pulling timing, IDC's will drop etc. Seen it before, get too much fueling and the engine lays down.

Then right in the middle of all that random KR you shift into second. It looks like your commanding the shift at 6000 rpms or 53~54 mph. At that point your into the WOT parameters in the trans tables. if you want the car to shift based on the RPM's then set the mph slightly higher then the shift rpm and the pcm will shift on the rpm. you don't want the pcm hunting for a shift, taking too long to complete the shift etc.

The same stuff is exihibeted from frames 5305 to 5420 +/ a frame or two.
I'll have to scrounge thru some of my logs to corralate the O2's to actual afr because I use a wideband therefore I loose track of what 890 mv represents.. sorry.

- clean up the shifts.
- clean up the afr in PE mode, its still way too rich.
- also just for logging, instead of spending so much time graduating into 100% tps, step on the pedal... get into it and lets see how the PCM dives into it instead of a gradual increase. Those transitions are tricky for the PCM. I'd just like to see what the PCM does when you got on it all out.

Have you ordered a wideband yet?
I realize you can't import the data into your vehicle interface but at least you'll know for reference.

Looks like good learning.

Can you send me a copy of your current .hpt file, I'd like to see what's causing your PCM to command 10.6 AFR while in PE mode.

Later,

[99ssei]

- I notice once you go into PE mode your afr goes way down into the 10's 10.8 & 10'6 for commanded afr. You have some parameters that are causing that. Again, its comanded afr which means this is what the program is looking for.
I'd try to figure out what parameter is doing that and adjust it accordingly.

What's good "ideal" range for commanding the PE AFR? I'm currently commanding 10.8:1

[Allmachtige]

Gentlemen, some important findings this morning. First I'd like to address PDXGTP's suggestions:

I agree, I think I need to clean up my shifts because like you said it feels like its "hunting" for a shift at times. I can see some heavy KR at these points. I'll do that before getting into my timing table tune.

You also mentioned how my AFR is too low, agreed, but I could use some assistance as to finding where this data is being pulled from. My first thought was PE AFR vs ECT:


I never touched this table yet and as you can see its all the way up to 12.1 during most of my driving conditions, so I don't see how this would cause my AFR to dip into the 10's.

To help you all out here is my HTP BIN I used for this mornings scan:
http://ente.got-game.org/hptuners/inten ... eabuse.hpt

Now on to the very good, yet perplexing discovery....

KR is practically gone.

...

What did I do? Well I had Ken email me his BIN to compare torque management and abuse settings. I found some interesting data and the following pics describe the changes I made for this morning's scan:

This table I just downright forgot to change, so I did and the results:


My TCS AFR table was all 15.7 except for the first cell, my change:


I noticed Ken had changed more in his Abuse settings, so I just did as monkey saw (changes in green):


Same goes for here (changes in green):


After a long time of thinking and comparing with Ken's shift time tables I made this change:


I don't have a "Performance" button, but made some changes to the performance shift time table just in case:


And here is the real kicker...I noticed 2 TM settings set to Enabled, so...


Result? Take a look:





Either I did something very right or very wrong.

This scan also involved another increase to the PE portion of the MAF curve to enrich those O2's.

Here are the scan files if you wish:
http://ente.got-game.org/hptuners/O2_oc ... KRGONE.csv
http://ente.got-game.org/hptuners/O2_oc ... KRGONE.hpl

Oh by the way, the butt dyno has never felt this good before. Seriously...the car feels POWERFUL now.

[99ssei]

I have not tested out the Gear Abuse settings yet (just changed them last night to see if that helped).
Kyle, I noticed in your scan almost all of your LTFTs above 100 kPa are not locked in at 0. Additionally, your O2's are still low. Still more work to do here, but good news is you've isolated the KR problem!

[Allmachtige]

I have not tested out the Gear Abuse settings yet (just changed them last night to see if that helped).
Kyle, I noticed in your scan almost all of your LTFTs above 100 kPa are not locked in at 0. Additionally, your O2's are still low. Still more work to do here, but good news is you've isolated the KR problem!

Yep. Now I need to lock down where the AFR command rate is being set. I always thought it was the PE AFR vs ECT table, am I wrong?
I really think its just so low because my PE MAF is still out of wack.

[PDXGTP]

I have not tested out the Gear Abuse settings yet (just changed them last night to see if that helped).
Kyle, I noticed in your scan almost all of your LTFTs above 100 kPa are not locked in at 0. Additionally, your O2's are still low. Still more work to do here, but good news is you've isolated the KR problem!

Yep. Now I need to lock down where the AFR command rate is being set. I always thought it was the PE AFR vs ECT table, am I wrong?
I really think its just so low because my PE MAF is still out of wack.

Ok,
Thanks for sending the file, that helps.

About the afr going rich...
Go to Engine/Fuel Control/Power Enrich/ now the three buttons under Power enrichment. click on Power Enrich Fuel Adder vs RPM vs Time. Now zero this entire field. This is a timer and what it does is once you go into PE mode it starts adding fuel based of the timers. Notice, timers on the left side, zero time at the top and goes to 25.6 seconds vs RPM.....
Again, Zero this entire table, it just complicates the tune. When you enter PE mode you want the afr to be 11.7 or 11.8. This field will add fuel as you can see it has numbers that start with - so do the math 11.8 commanded afr adding -1.364 afr at 11.2 seconds for example = 10.5 afr.

Another thing:
Go to Engine/Fuel Control/Power Enrich/ now the three buttons under Power enrichment. click on Add vs. TPS ... Now zero this field. you don't need it. This is more over nonsense by the GM engineers.

- and lastely...
Go to Engine/Fuel Control/Power Enrich/ now the three buttons under Power enrichment. click on Base AFR vs. ECT. ... This is where you command the AFR during PE mode.
From about 140*F I'd set them to 11.8 afr all the way up to 284*F. Everything below 140*F I'd leave stock so you have enrichment in the cold operating conditions.

During your part throttle tuning set the Base AFR vs. ECT to 14.7 for all temps and the PE mode enable TPS Hot to zero for all rpms... during that part of tuning only.
after the tuning remember to switch it back to 28% or what ever it is you desire for PE mode enable.

That should stablize your AFR during PE mode operation.

you need to have these dialed in before you calibrate the MAF. this way you know without a doubt that you are commanding correctly before yo start to calibrate the MAF this is super.. ultra important to have done before you calibrate because you need the reference to be accurate before yo do the MAF cal. The MAF cal basically will dial in the AFR compared to what you are commanding. This my friend is the point. Get the tune right, cal the MAF to commanded AFR values and Bingo... bad A$$ tune..

[Allmachtige]

Awesome info! Thanks!

I understand a lot of these tables now based on what you've said. However, I thought I should set my PE Enable TPS Hot to all 100's for the part throttle tuning and not 0's?

Oh another random question... What is Knock Retard Decay? I noticed my Intense BIN has it increased from 36 to 136 from 3200rpm and up.

Thanks again.

[99ssei]

PDXGTP - Very well written!! I think you might've helped me out in my issue. As a test, I tried zeroing out the Power Enrich Fuel Adder vs RPM vs Time table. I noticed a big drop in KR. I'm still working out the kinks with my PE MAF and O2s, but it looks like I might be moving in the right direction as well.

Oh another random question... What is Knock Retard Decay? I noticed my Intense BIN has it increased from 36 to 136 from 3200rpm and up.

KR Decay is how long or how fast it takes the KR to "disappear" Think of it like this..Once KR is picked up by the sensor, it retards the timing based on the severity of the count. This is called knock attack. After KR is gone, to protect the motor, the retarded timing slowly goes away, or "decays" from the timing. This is knock decay.

[Allmachtige]

Why did Intense set decay so high then? To protect against false knock maybe?

[Allmachtige]

Thomas thanks for the help! I just got back from a scan and my AFR's lock in at 11.7 at WOT.

However my O2's leaned out quite a bit (probably from zeroing out the PE vs RPM vs Time table), so I have a lot more MAF tuning to do...but I'm happy to be on the right track again. Thanks again!

[PDXGTP]

Thomas thanks for the help! I just got back from a scan and my AFR's lock in at 11.7 at WOT.

However my O2's leaned out quite a bit (probably from zeroing out the PE vs RPM vs Time table), so I have a lot more MAF tuning to do...but I'm happy to be on the right track again. Thanks again!

Excellent... Now were talking..
You definately getting it now.

Side note, yesterday I couldn't see any of your pictures in your post above and today I can.

Yes.. you need to do a lot of MAF tuning now.
For your MAF tune.
- in the Base AFR vs ECT set all of the fields to 14.7 ... all the way across.
- in the PE Enable vs. TPS set all of the fields to zero.
Now do the Part throttle MAF tuning, this will dial in your actual AFR/O2's considering your not using a wide band. take your time, you might make 8 to 10 scans and adjustments to your airflow vs. freq in your MAF Calibration.. no prob.
Collect data all the way up to 7000 or 7500 hz maf freq but don't get on it too much because the PCM will always be commanding 14.7 only. You have to be conservitive in the throttle during this tuning because you don't want to run too high of RPM at 14.7, lean it out too much and cause problems or excess detonation.

Once you start PE mode tuning of the MAF calibration.
- in the Base AFR vs ECT set all of the fields to 11.7 ... all the way across.
- in the PE Enable vs. TPS set all of the fields to 28% or what ever is that you so desire..
It should only take a few passes to dial this one in.
Depending on how you set up your hisogram, you can copy from the scan log and paste special - multiply by % your data into the editor.
This is in the procedure I sent you. I very strongly believe that you have developed a pretty good understanding of what your doing now.

If you get your part throttle afr dialed in really well the MAF cal will keep it where it belongs.

Once you finish the PE mode MAF tuning yo do not need to change the Base AFRvs. ECT. Its necesary to keep it at 11.7 but I'd only set everything to 11.7 above 140*F and above. I'd return everything below 140*F to the stock parameters so you have sufficient fueling under cold operating conditions.

Later,

[Allmachtige]

Once you start PE mode tuning of the MAF calibration.
- in the Base AFR vs ECT set all of the fields to 11.7 ... all the way across.
- in the PE Enable vs. TPS set all of the fields to 28% or what ever is that you so desire..
It should only take a few passes to dial this one in.
Depending on how you set up your hisogram, you can copy from the scan log and paste special - multiply by % your data into the editor.
This is in the procedure I sent you. I very strongly believe that you have developed a pretty good understanding of what your doing now.

So will I be adjusting the entire MAF freq table when tuning in PE mode or only worry about 7000+?

Can you resend the procedure you're talking about? I'm not sure which you speak of. Thanks.

EDIT: Wouldn't it be easier to set the PE Enable vs TPS table to all 100's for the MAF tuning? I say this because before you hit PE mode the AFR is always locked in at 14.7 (at least for me it is).

[Allmachtige]

I found the guide you're referring to and the graph for MAF - AFR Error is not a supported parameter. I believe I need a wideband, let alone the Pro version of the HPTuner software to do this.

Its not a big deal because I'm used to using Eddie's tool, but let me know if this is the case either way.

[Allmachtige]

Documentation note: Lowered PE AFR from 11.8 to 11.75 for tonight's scan (11.5-11.75 is suggested range in Thomas' guide).

[PDXGTP]

Hey Kyle,
Just looking at your last posts.

- I apologize about that procedure, it is designed for a wideband.
- as far as the PE mode maf freq... What i do is look at my first log, I run the rpms up slowly until the tps hits the % that i choose, The reason I run up slowly is to allow the maf freq to be caught up witht he engine roms. in your case, you choose 28%. once you hit 28%, see where the maf freq is. "usually" its between 7000 ~ 7500 hz
You will also have a little line in the maf graph in the editor from the part throttle & PE mode line.. no problem. you can also smooth it if you like.

Can you share out the eddie procedure that you are referring to? please?

[Allmachtige]

I used this for pre PE MAF tuning:
http://wiki.opentuner3800.com/index.php ... _MAF_Table

And for my O2's I'm increasing the post 7000Hz freq's by 1% margins. Touched on slightly here:
http://wiki.opentuner3800.com/index.php ... g_Your_O2s

[Dirthead Racing]

And for my O2's I'm increasing the post 7000Hz freq's by 1% margins. Touched on slightly here:
http://wiki.opentuner3800.com/index.php ... g_Your_O2s

[Allmachtige]

Well I lowered my PE AFR from 11.8 to 11.75 and reset my fuel trims after making more MAF adjustments. Besides, my PE LTFT's were locked in at 4.7 from a previous curve.

Well now my O2's look lean as heck again. Does this take time to settle in or did lowing my PE AFR slightly screw myself over?

Otherwise I'll just keep increasing the 7000+Hz range, but I fear that soon I'm going to be pushing way too much fuel.

Take a look at tonight's scan:



Files:
http://ente.got-game.org/hptuners/O2_oct6_MAF_09.csv
http://ente.got-game.org/hptuners/O2_oct6_MAF_09.hpl

Thoughts?

[PDXGTP]

You should only do above 7000 hz for the PE mode stuff.
Remember ... you need to completely ignore the part throttle stuff because now your commanding 11.7 afr so you will show a hugh difference for everything below 7000 hz and below 28% tps.
I'll look at the formula that yor using to understand what and how your doing it... but the methode I suggested uses afr error correction % therefore when i'm commanding 11.7 & >7000 hz it always shows hugh errors in the range of the part throttle stuff.
I hope I said that right. You have to ignore & discriminate selectively.

[Allmachtige]

You have to ignore & discriminate selectively.

LOL! I am, but still asking...

I command 14.7 AFR until 28%, then it hits 11.75. Just confirming, dunno if I'm confusing you or you are confusing me...probably both.

Main conclusion I'm coming to is that my O2's are not enriching after various 1% increase to my Hz range above 28% TPS (~6500Hz by the way). Resetting my trims didn't help with my O2's in the slightest. Maybe time will let them settle in.

I feel as though I need to add a good 2-3% to see if I get any results. Is this normal? If so this is the leanest running car GM has ever put out on the market.