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Thank you Bill, I will gather all things needed for test, will test it out and will let you know.

Regards,
Larry

Did the ignition coils ever get checked?

In your pictures:
#1 is a mounting point for the airbox
#2 is the abs unit & one of its mounting brackets
#3 is the PCM (powertrain control module), AKA computer

Mike, I have checked the secondaries of the ignition coils.

Could not unscrew the units as did not have heads to check primaries. How many chances that primaries of the coils are no good? And you see once started the car starts nicely afterwords, just from half a turn. So do you think still primaries at fault?

Thanks,
Larry

Will test Spark and injection signal syncro soon and will advise.

Thanks,
Larry

Good day all,

Well some interesting news...


Mike, I have tested primaries of the coils windings as you show in the sample, pictures and these are the findings (Mike I connected tester as your sample picture that you attached earlier):
1 - Primary coil 3 and 6: Primary: 0.7 to 0.8 ohm, Secondary steady 5.9kOhm (note primary was not stable reading, very jumpy, though the area where I tested it maybe had lots of electrostatics and there was electric heat blower very close, so the reading would jump and range in the vicinity of 1.1 ohm or even more)
2 - Primary coil 2 and 5: Primary: 0.7 to 0.8 ohm, Secondary steady 6.0kOhm (note primary was not stable reading, very jumpy, though the area where I tested it maybe had lots of electrostatics and there was electric heat blower very close, so the reading would jump and range in the vicinity of 1.1 ohm or even more)
3 - Primary coil 1 and 4: Primary: 0.7 to 0.8 ohm, Secondary steady 6.0kOhm (note primary was not stable reading, very jumpy, though the area where I tested it maybe had lots of electrostatics and there was electric heat blower very close, so the reading would jump and range in the vicinity of 1.1 ohm or even more)

Now, Bill Buttermore, I have tested 2 things that you have suggested:

1 - Fuel injectors that they are being sent voltage. I have tested it with indicator (not digital) voltmeter, and every injector showed 9 volts (also as each electrical injector end was disconnected the engine worked rough, and I had check engine light to come on, I think later it gave me code DTS 1001 or similar saying injection low circuit etc., I deleted the code later and it never come back, of course that as after reconnecting each electrical injector).
2 - Then I have checked spark plug wires. I found that wires 1, 2, and 5 plugs that connect to the coils, did not want to collect the sparks (when removed separately from coil pack connector), so they hit the bodies of neighboring coils or body of itself. I am very surprised, my wires are BOSH Premium, and they are pretty new, but I am seriously thinking to change them. Any suggestion if BOSH is a good wire choice?
You see other wires or connectors (inside rubber boot of wires 3, 4 and 6 were gathering sparks in itself much more then rubber boot of wires 1, 2, and 5 therefore I very much believe the simple bad wires can be problem of this all problem).

So from this I have 2 questions:

1 - Do you think coil packs are faulty from the description above?
2 - Or clearly it is spark plug wires that need to be replaced?
3 - Or both 1 and 2 above?

Thanks and looking to hear from you soonest,
Larry

It appears from your description that you were unable to check the ignition components while it was hard to start in the cold. Is that the case? If you have an Ignition Control Module (ICM) that is malfunctioning in cold weather, for example, you need to "catch it in the act." The tests I described do not require that the engine be running, only that the starter will crank it over.

Regarding your findings:

The values you measured for your coils fall within the specifications posted in Techinfo

I prefer Belden Premium wires.

You are not running Bosch platinum plugs are you? These are known to perform poorly in our waste spark ignition systems. A better choice would be NGK TR55 "v" power copper core plugs.

The tendency of the spark not to want to jump from its coil post to 3 of your plug wires (and the plug grounded in the engine) is not a normal result. That should be the preferred path and indicates to me a problem with those plugs and/or wires.

Plug wires are very fragile. They can be internally damaged when they are removed from the plugs when plugs are changed. It is a good idea to liberally apply dielectric silicone grease to the clips and boots at both ends of the plug wires, and try not to disturb them any more than absolutely necessary.

Hi Bill,

Yes you are right, I was unable to check the ignition components while it was hard to start in the cold as it is *dang* cold, or too dark. So yes this is the case.

I will try to catch it in the act the Ignition Control Module (ICM) if it will be possible.

No my plugs are just 1 month old, and these are AC Delco platinum. Are these better then NGK TR55 "v" or not?

I will change the wires and we will see.

Thanks,
Larry

There are lots of opinions on plugs.

I know Bosch platinum are bad in our engines
I know NGK copper cores work well in our engines

I really don't know what other plugs may be good or bad. Others will no doubt chime in to offer their opinions.

Do the same spark jump test with the new wires. If you still have a problem - put in a set of NGK plugs - they are only $12. Do apply a liberal amount of silicone dielectric grease to the new boots on both ends of the wires. And be very careful to only pull on the boots to remove them from the plugs or coil posts.

I was just skimming over some of the past posts & might have found something.
Did you get a 0 reading from the MAF sensor while the car was running?
If that's correct then check the connections at the MAF sensor & get another scan. Check it at idle & again at 2,000 rpm.

Hi Mike,

Yes you are right, I have checked this morning and my MAF does not show a digit just 0.000000 all the time.

Thing is that If I disconnect it the car shuts down as soon as it is started. So seems like MAF is working just I am not sure why there is no reading on that BIDII or whatever the name of the scanner is.

Question, how to check with volt meter or resistance meter if MAF is ok or not?

Thanks,
Larry

I don't believe you can check the MAF with a voltmeter. If I understand it correctly, the computer actually reads a frequency from the sensor & then converts it to the lb/min reading you're seeing on the scanner. I'm confused on how you can be getting a 0 reading & not throwing a MAF sensor code.

Are you anywhere near Buffalo/Niagara Falls?

Hi Mike,

I am confused too.

Some 2 years back my MAF sensor went kaput, and I know how it is when it is not working, the engine just shuts down due to too rich mixture. Now it is not the case.

I am just 440miles north east Niagara falls.

Can I check the wires for some volts or whatever when I pierce the wires feeding to and coming back from MAF? Just to see it is alive.

Thanks,
Larry

just 440 miles! I was hoping you were less less an hour away. We could have tried my scanner and/or swapped MAF sensors.

The MAF sensor has three wires.
Terminal A - (yellow wire) is where the PCM reads the frequency.
Terminal B - (black/white wire) Ground.
Terminal C - (pink wire) 12 volts with key on.

There's no need to pierce the wires just check for 12 volts between the pink & black/white wires.

Good day,

I have checked MAF sensor.and between C and B on the connection with key on I found 11.8V (close to 12V), then I decided to check A with B and it showed 5.2V, and then A with C showed as 6.2V.

Now right after that with car not started yet I have decided to test the new spark plug wires for the spark as Bill has described, and guess what, the spark from the posts beat to the port # 3 and the other. The wires are new! The sparks are new! What the hell is wrong with the sparks coils and posts?

After that the car started ok and it worked ok, of course it had high revs due to the fact that MAF was disconnected and needed to calibrate, but after that all worked fine.

The mystery is sparks hitting it emitting posts, maybe the coils itself are bad? Check my testing description the secondaries (that gave stable results) and primaries that had lots up and down ohms while I have measured, was not just one straight number that read on the ohm meter, it was varying a lot and then stabilized within the norm. What do you think about that?

Thanks,
Larry

Let's make sure you are not condemning the ignition parts unfairly. Remember that you need to maintain a pretty close distance when you check for spark. After all, the gap on the plug is only .060" - that's a little less than one-sixteenth of an inch. If you do not slide the boot on the wire to expose the metal clip on the end of the wire, or insert a metal conductor into the clip, in order to hold the two metal parts within a quarter inch or less, you may be asking the spark to jump farther than it can realistically go, and it instead the spark just jumps to the coil.

If you only lift the clip off of the coil post, without extending the conductor, you may only hear the spark jump from the post to the clip as a small snap inside the boot. The little snap still tells you that you have spark from that coil and that it is going to ground through the wire and (probably) the plug.

Hey all,

So how does MAF looks like with the parameters I described below?

Bill, I do attach some pictures how close did I hold the boot to the post to check the spark, is that too far?



<a href="http://s601.photobucket.com/albums/tt98/laimisl/?action=view&current=DSCN4545.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt98/laimisl/DSCN4545.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>



<a href="http://s601.photobucket.com/albums/tt98/laimisl/?action=view&current=DSCN4546.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt98/laimisl/DSCN4546.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Thanks, Larry.

It depends on the specific plug wire - they are all not made the same. That is, how far up inside the boot is the metal clip? The metal conductors are probably just far enough apart holding it as you have shown, so that you need to use a metallic conductor of some sort stuck into the clip in the boot. That way, you can see the two metal conductors clearly and maintain a reasonable distance. A convenient method is to install an old spark plug into the coil end of the boot, then just lay it up against the coil post. If all is working well, you will see the spark jump between the side electrode and the center electrode of the plug, even in daylight. Using a spark plug will provide a good contact, but will not stretch the clip out of shape.

Another factor is how dirty the coils are. The spark may want to travel on a conductive path of dirt to the body of the coil more readily than if the surface of the coils was nice and clean.

Hi Bill,

Today it was -10C (minus) (14F) so I have tested the spark plugs and all showed ok. I used old spark plug as you have suggested.

Also at this temperature the car did not start from half a turn.

Any more ideas what I may check for that hard start problem? There are no DTC codes.

Thanks,
Larry

laimisl wrote:Hi Bill,

Today it was -10C (minus) (14F) so I have tested the spark plugs and all showed ok. I used old spark plug as you have suggested.

Also at this temperature the car did not start from half a turn.

Any more ideas what I may check for that hard start problem? There are no DTC codes.

Thanks,
Larry

Excellent! Now (I think) we can eliminate ignition as the problem. That brings us to fuel. If spark is being supplied in proper quantity and time, then all we need to start is fuel doing the same. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am thinking you checked to see if the injectors were getting a signal from the PCM (powertrain control module) to fire when it was cold. If so, you are either getting too much or too little fuel.

I realize that this is a barbaric method, but, if your cold snap holds, at the next opportunity, pull one of the front spark plugs, light up a propane torch and hold it so that it will ignite the mixture of gas and air that blows out of the spark plug hole as someone turns the engine over. If you have a proper fuel mixture, you will get a nice big poof flame out the hole or maybe a loud pop! as the mixture explodes. Just be careful you don't burn yourself or anything else with the torch and the fuel mixture. I have used this method successfully to check for bad injectors. If the car doesn't start, pull another front plug and see if it is wet with gas (flooded) or dry. This crude but cheap analysis should point us in the right direction.

Thanks Bill.

Yes I have checked that injectors were getting CONSTANT signal from the PCM.

Wow, I will have to get some more tools, as I do not have garage, nor the tools.

Will let you know when will check the 3 front ones.

Is there other method?

I think my gas consumption is a little more then before, would that indicate the problem?

Thanks,
Larry