Running in circles. Warm power loss. Dies sometimes.

[Christopher1watson]

If anyone can tell me how to post into my 5000k of free pic posting on this site. Please enlighten me.

Here is a link of how to use our gallery. Hopefully that will help you out.

EDIT: oops, forgot the link itself.... http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... f=2&t=1852

Thanks. I'll look into it.

God Bless,

Chris

[lash]

OK, so I spent waaaay too much time reading this thread and due to the sheer volume of words, it's possible I didn't memorize everything that's been said.

I know you've replaced the coils and/or tested them, however...it's not uncommon for the S1s to have coil problems. More specifically, members here have had issues with the coils upon heating up. these issues almost always show up as intermittent and bear some additional consideration. Additionally, you mention that you've had it down to the plate, but I don't recall you saying that you've tested the ICM itself. I suggest doing so if you haven't already.

Another thing that caught my attention is that you feel pretty strongly that it's and electrical problem and that may be so. Have you considered that it may be a major sensor problem. IIRC, yours has a MAP sensor.

Your major sensors, MAP, engine temp., and crankshaft position sensor can all cause the car to go into limp home mode and may cause it to run exactly like you mention. Additionally, the first two, MAP and engine temp are specifically affected by temperature.

These are cases where a scanner could very well help you to diagnose it, IMO.

[Christopher1watson]

Have you investigated the EGR. The EGR is not used until the engine warms up. If a pintle valve sticks open, it would be feeding exhaust gas into a cylinder when it shouldn't. Try running it with the EGR unplugged and see if it stays running when warm. You will get the EGR codes, but the EGR should not try to open. You could even clean and inspect the EGR itself or get one from the JY.

Edit: I don't want to sound off the wall here, but does the engine light function when the car is started? I want to make sure there isn't any codes that are hidden from a burnt bulb. Has the O2 sensor ever been serviced and if so, what brand was put in? When it is warm and running, is the solenoid on the evap canister clicking?

Glad to see you noticed I failed to write, that I checked the EGR.

I unplugged it cold. It took several drives with the SES light on before it acted up. When it did. I plugged it back in. Still acted up. Turned it off. Unplugged it after I turned it off. To reset it's position to closed. Still continued to act up. Removed the EGR Valve. Visually inspected it. Put a steel plate under it. Reinstalled. Car had cooled down. Problem quit for a while. Got it going on a warm day. Still acted up. So, the EGR Valve is reinstalled back to factory. I thought that was the problem when I was looking. Wished it had been. Easy repair.

Yes. My SES light works fine.

The canister purge solenoind is clicking. Within 5 minutes of start up.

It has a factory 02 sensor. I have no codes. SES light responds to unplugging things. 02 sensor problems never cause a problem this severe on GM's. Runs fine when you unplug the 02 sensor. It's the Heated style of sensor. It's switching. I checked that with my voltmeter.

God Bless,

Chris

[Christopher1watson]

I think that you need to check your fuel pressure. Just because you have a new pump and filter does not mean you can't possibly have a pressure problem.

Get a pressure gauge and check your pressure while driving when the problem happens.

A NEW balancer is only $165.00 from GMPartsDirect.com, but I would't recommend jumping to conclusions and changing that right away. I seriously doubt that is your problem, just wanted you to know that they can be had new for much less then $300 +

Believe me, I know all about running in circles chasing an electrical problem. I chased a problem down on my '93 for two months last summer after it died on me with no warning.

This problem only occurs when it's 70 degrees or, above.

Fuel pressure is 42-47 lbs. Same as it was with the other pump. Changing the pump did not change the problem. I've installed ovr 100 new electric fuel pumps. Never put in a bad new one, yet. I know you can get bad new parts. But, this is not a pump problem. It's a power/ground problem in the fuel pump electrical circut most likely. The pump hums steady. But, the car acted up a few days ago for a couple of minutes. It was only 50 outside. But, I had had it running for over 2 hrs. I got in it to go to town. And, it didn't want to go. I thought cool. Let's check some things. I had already removed the back seat to listen to it. The pump was making a weird sound. Like it was stopping and, starting. Totally different sound. So, I turned it off and, restarted to take it to where my tools are. It has to be restarted to get power back. It quit. And, ran fine. I drove it to town. Drove it around my pasture. Ran great. I'll have to get a warm enough day to get it to act up. It's 32 outside, right now. I do suspect low fuel pressure. But, I,m looking at why the electrical circuit is shutting down the power to the pump. It was like the relay was kicking on and, off when I heard it. I've changed the relay. Didn't help.

I need to know if there's a ground point in the right front kick panel area. I've checked the one in the floor pan on the right side. Left side, to. And,, I've checked the Ground by the Emergency Brake Pedal.

I need to know of any ground locations in the trunk. My floor pan ground check indicated more grounding points. Possibly in the trunk or, under the seat/behind the seat. I've had the seat out. Didn't see one there. I need to pull the upper rear seat and, clear the trunk and, look.

Old Fuel filter same problem. New fuel filter same problem. Old pump, same problem. Tank removed, and, pump checked for leakage through the attachment hose. Tank inspect for cleanliness. Tanks was clean. Reinstalled. No change. Pulled tank again. Installed brand new Borg Warner pump. With new sock. Tank was still clean. No change. Same problem exists. If, it's low pressure. Which I highly believe it is, the way it acts. It's because it's loosing voltage supply to the pump somehow. When it acts up again. I'll be pulling the seat listening to the pump. I can also, control the fuel pump relay myself. That's where, I'm headed. Jumper wires. There's the human/computer trying to solve this. LOL. ME.

As for the balancer. It's not a problem at all. Except, it's a problem fixing to happen. It's old and, the rubber is rotton. It will come apart one day. And, destroy my CPS leaveing me stranded. I can get on for 10$ at the pull it yourself salvage yard. But, that is a good price. Thanks. I didn't get a jobber price quote. I just called the dealer. I'd have a new one if my 1/2 inch extension hadn't broke when I was trying to break the crank bolt loose.

What was the problem with your 93 BTW????

God Bless,

Chris

[93RedSled-SSE]

Fuel pressure is 42-47 lbs. Same as it was with the other pump. Changing the pump did not change the problem. I've installed ovr 100 new electric fuel pumps. Never put in a bad new one, yet. I know you can get bad new parts. But, this is not a pump problem. It's a power/ground problem in the fuel pump electrical circut most likely. The pump hums steady. But, the car acted up a few days ago for a couple of minutes. It was only 50 outside. But, I had had it running for over 2 hrs. I got in it to go to town. And, it didn't want to go. I thought cool. Let's check some things. I had already removed the back seat to listen to it. The pump was making a weird sound. Like it was stopping and, starting. Totally different sound.

I need to know if there's a ground point in the right front kick panel area.

I need to know of any ground locations in the trunk.

How about your OIL PRESSURE SWITCH? It kills the pump when pressure gets too low. Maybe it is marginal and only a problem with warm, thinner oil. Depending on your setup, the switch is not in the gauge circuit, if you have a gauge.

If you still need pix of those 2 ground areas mentioned, here you go
in Trunk


passenger kick panel

[Christopher1watson]

OK, so I spent waaaay too much time reading this thread and due to the sheer volume of words, it's possible I didn't memorize everything that's been said.

I know you've replaced the coils and/or tested them, however...it's not uncommon for the S1s to have coil problems. More specifically, members here have had issues with the coils upon heating up. these issues almost always show up as intermittent and bear some additional consideration. Additionally, you mention that you've had it down to the plate, but I don't recall you saying that you've tested the ICM itself. I suggest doing so if you haven't already.

Another thing that caught my attention is that you feel pretty strongly that it's and electrical problem and that may be so. Have you considered that it may be a major sensor problem. IIRC, yours has a MAP sensor.

Your major sensors, MAP, engine temp., and crankshaft position sensor can all cause the car to go into limp home mode and may cause it to run exactly like you mention. Additionally, the first two, MAP and engine temp are specifically affected by temperature.

These are cases where a scanner could very well help you to diagnose it, IMO.

Way to long. Hmmmmmm. This is a very good post. Lots to learn here. Well worth your time. I've learned a few things in it myself.

IIRC?? Is that my model??? A sensor. I've worked on so many different cars. That, I can't memorize the series numbers for all of them. It's a 93 3.8 bonneville se. Series 93. LOL. I have only put parts on it from 93 Standard Edition 3.8 GM's built in the same factory. Bonneville, Lesabre, 88. Don't believe there was a chevy. I use the vin code to identifie the year and, engine.

If, it was in limp. My SES light would be on.

It has a brand new CPS. No change.

Map sensor. Manifold Absolute Pressure. Goes rich 0 or, low vacuum. Black smoke. Fowled plugs. It's not a rich problem. Don't recall seeing one. I don't have the component locator. I'll check it out. About, all I can do is unplug/replace it. It's obviously not a vacuum problem, to it. Where's it located??? BTW. In the dash, somewhere??

I've changed many DIS coils. They cause a misfire. No Fire. Never on all cylinders. I've rotated checked coils on this car. It is like it's fuel pressure drops to like 10 lbs. No power. Backfires into the intake.

Temp sensors. Hmmmmm. How hot would it read to lean the mixture this lean. Out of parameters. SES light would come on. Besides. I've checked the resistance on it several times. Just hoping and, the whole time knowing it's a waste of time.

I have no codes. The mass airflow meter is the substition style. It looks new. And, unplugging it does not change the problem. Just sets off my SES light. It runs good cold with it unplugged, too.

I have not changed the TPS yet. Highly unlikely. But, I'm thinking about it. Easy and, cheap.

Checked the ICM. I've changed it. The ICM Mounting Plate is under the ICM. Still did it. Now, I have an extra one. And, I have a extra PCM, too.

Scanners. OK. I've used them. Don't feel a need to buy one. Since, I can read everything at the PCM with my Snap on Digital meter. I just need a good wiring diagram. Besides this is a ghosty intermittant problem. So, I'd have to have the scanner hooked up while it was happening. I still highly suspect power/ground missing. Does your scanner check all the grounds??? And, I'd love to have one. Cost more than I paid for the car. Besides, I've been fixing Computerized cars since long before scanners came into being. And, when they did. They were good for seeing sensors out of range. Checking injector dwell, pulling codes, ect. Some grounds could be read with the ones I used. I'ved used Sun and, Bear scopes. The bears had built in scanners. I've used snap on scanners. Sold them because of divorce. I know they've come a long way. But, I can see everything a scanner can at the PCM. I need a wiring diagram and, a ground locator.

I do have my fuel pressure gauge in the car, now. So, if it does it again, I can verifie the fuel pressure when it's acting up.

It's supposed to warm up this weekend. So, maybe it will act up.

God Bless,

Chris

[crash93ssei]

The problem with my '93 turned out to be a shorted wire going that supplies power to the oil pressure sending unit, ICM, and several other things. There was a wire clamp that was supposed to be bolted to the tensioner bracket but the bolt was gone and the clamp slid down the wire loom and over time it wore through the insulation on the wire, shorting it out.

My problem was a straight up dead car. No spark at all, so I doubt this is the same problem you are having, but you never know. You can check out my topic of horror during the fix here > viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2371 There is also some things you might look into as well.

I was just wanting confirmation on the fuel pressure numbers. I would hate to have you go through all of this and then have it be a bent fuel line or something

You say the PSI is 42 - 47 pounds. Is that at idle or while driving down the road? What about under WOT while driving?

[93RedSled-SSE]

Don't overlook the oil pressure switch as mentioned above.

[Christopher1watson]

Fuel pressure is 42-47 lbs. Same as it was with the other pump. Changing the pump did not change the problem. I've installed ovr 100 new electric fuel pumps. Never put in a bad new one, yet. I know you can get bad new parts. But, this is not a pump problem. It's a power/ground problem in the fuel pump electrical circut most likely. The pump hums steady. But, the car acted up a few days ago for a couple of minutes. It was only 50 outside. But, I had had it running for over 2 hrs. I got in it to go to town. And, it didn't want to go. I thought cool. Let's check some things. I had already removed the back seat to listen to it. The pump was making a weird sound. Like it was stopping and, starting. Totally different sound.

I need to know if there's a ground point in the right front kick panel area.

I need to know of any ground locations in the trunk.

How about your OIL PRESSURE SWITCH? It kills the pump when pressure gets too low. Maybe it is marginal and only a problem with warm, thinner oil. Depending on your setup, the switch is not in the gauge circuit, if you have a gauge.

If you still need pix of those 2 ground areas mentioned, here you go
in Trunk


passenger kick panel

I like you.

Now, that's what I'm talking about.

Thanks.

The oil pressure sender has been changed. I was experiencing this problem before, I changed it. The problem has been slowly coming out more. I changed the sender, because it was reading eratic. Works good now. Steady from 60 lbs. cold to 45lbs. warm. Engine is strong and, quite.

I have had some eratic fuel gauge readings. But, I think in the hunt. I've fixed it, somewhere along the line.

The grounds.

This is cool. Thanks. I knew there were some in the trunk most likely. They showed up when, I checked the left floor pan tree. I have three ground wires at the connector with the tree removed. All appear to be headed to the trunk.

I have not checked them or, the one in the right front kick panel area. I was wondering about a ground in the right front kick panel area. That's where, I'm going next. It was also hit in the right front. Well. Maybe not hit. But, more like it was run into something. I had to fix the door. Which, BTW. The Electric lock is itchy. But, not suprising. It was caved in pretty deep all the way down. Took me a while with my slide hammer to pull most of it out. The holes are hidden under the door ding guard. Had to replace the strut and, lower control arm. Frames a little bent. I just shifted it. It's not bent very bad. I may change that part of the frame. But, car drives nice. New headlight, marker light and, repaired the horn wire.

Anyway.

Thanks bunches. I'm on it as soon as it warms up a little more. Might be an answer, here.

BTW. For anyone else reading this post. First time I've seen any of this stuff posted in the forum for 92 to 99 models.

I knew about the oil pressure switch/sender kill system. Been around since the 80's. Sorry, I forgot to write that, I had changed my oil pressure sender. . I've done so much. I can't remember it all. I've slept a few hundred times between all the repairs and, checks.

But, If you are looking for answers. The floor pan ground trees have not been mentioned much. But, they have in many of the other posts.

God Bless, You for the diagrams.

Chris

Ok. I've checked the right front kick panel ground. Looked good. Took apart inspected and, reinstalled. Found a loose ground strap to the antenae in the trunk. Repaired that. Checked another ground I found in the trunk. Took apart inspected and, reinstalled. My trunk looks different than the diagram posted. I may need to pull the top half of the back seat. Just the radio speakers and, the antena appear to be on the right side. It's to wet to get under it. Do you have a floor pan ground diagram. Had a S10 blazer with a similar problem with a loose floor pan ground on the front passenger floor board. Just under the carpet where the passengers feet are. Went straight to the computer. He'd been trying to get it fixed for about a year. Fixed it in a couple of minutes. Made a customer for life. Spent all that money. Took it to all these different places. Dealer, too.

[Mechanical Mike]

Most of us believe the fuel pressure sender provided a secondary power source (pre 1994) for the fuel pump so the car would keep running if the fuel pump relay failed. We have seen some cases of the sending unit shorting out & blowing the fuse which also supplies power to the ICM. Very doubtful that this is causing you any problem.

Have you checked the fuel pressure while the engine has no power?

You stated that the the car will run fine all day if its cold out. Is the engine getting up to operating temperature when its cold out?

[Christopher1watson]

The problem with my '93 turned out to be a shorted wire going that supplies power to the oil pressure sending unit, ICM, and several other things. There was a wire clamp that was supposed to be bolted to the tensioner bracket but the bolt was gone and the clamp slid down the wire loom and over time it wore through the insulation on the wire, shorting it out.

My problem was a straight up dead car. No spark at all, so I doubt this is the same problem you are having, but you never know. You can check out my topic of horror during the fix here > viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2371 There is also some things you might look into as well.

I was just wanting confirmation on the fuel pressure numbers. I would hate to have you go through all of this and then have it be a bent fuel line or something

You say the PSI is 42 - 47 pounds. Is that at idle or while driving down the road? What about under WOT while driving?

I'll check into your post.

That's 47 vacuum removed. 42 with vacuum at idle. WOT is low vacuum. Just disconnect the vacuum hose from the regulator.

God Bless,

Chris

[Christopher1watson]

Most of us believe the fuel pressure sender provided a secondary power source (pre 1994) for the fuel pump so the car would keep running if the fuel pump relay failed. We have seen some cases of the sending unit shorting out & blowing the fuse which also supplies power to the ICM. Very doubtful that this is causing you any problem.

Have you checked the fuel pressure while the engine has no power?

You stated that the the car will run fine all day if its cold out. Is the engine getting up to operating temperature when its cold out?

The Thermostat is good. Gauge goes to 220 fast. Heater is like a fire. Never overheats. Both fans run. AC is great. I havn't been able to get the gauge on it when it has done it. But, it's in the trunk of the car, now. I'll hook it up when it does it again. May be a few days. It's chilly here. Ice Storm. May get to 40 today. I have driven this car today. For about 45 minutes. Runs like a new one.

I'm wondering if there is two fuel pump relays. One for the two seconds key on. And, one for after it starts. I've only switched the key on relay. Does anyone know if it only has one fuel pump relay???

God
Bless,

Chris

[Christopher1watson]

Don't overlook the oil pressure switch as mentioned above.

Thanks.

Interesting problem.

I've checked all the fuses. LOL. To many times. But, always trying to stay ahead of a potential problem. It's all ice everywhere, here now. I have my seville on my ramps. I will get soaked trying to get under it. I did look that harness over when I changed the Sender. I'll look into it.

Do you have a complete wiring diagram of my beast?? One that includes all the colro codes and, all the wires to the PCM. I've slapped some computers around. Usually for a no start. And, to make them die. Don't see it as a loose pin/connection at the PCM. Slapping it has no effect.

But, I can check all my grounds and, powers to the PCM. If, I have the right diagram.

And, do you know if it has more than one fuel pump relay??

God Bless,

Chris

[Mechanical Mike]

Just one fuel pump relay. The PCM controls when the relay is energized.

[93RedSled-SSE]

The wiring dia. are all broken up into applicable sections. There is a PCM pin assignment dia., w/signals, I believe, in the FSM. I don't have that here.
Here's the fuel pump section. NOTE: you have that test input that would help you bypass some stuff when the pump starts acting up, that will feed 12v to the pump through a de-energized pump relay.


I hope I am doing this part right, since I don't want to kill the viewing of this thread, so BELOW is the link for a slightly large Fuel-Idle-Air wiring, you should be able to zoom-in to read it or print in landscape
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18 ... irCtrl.gif

and
the IGN ckt., which is even bigger
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18 ... onHUGE.gif

There, that should keep you out of the ice and snow for a while.

[Christopher1watson]

The wiring dia. are all broken up into applicable sections. There is a PCM pin assignment dia., w/signals, I believe, in the FSM. I don't have that here.
Here's the fuel pump section. NOTE: you have that test input that would help you bypass some stuff when the pump starts acting up, that will feed 12v to the pump through a de-energized pump relay.


I hope I am doing this part right, since I don't want to kill the viewing of this thread, so BELOW is the link for a slightly large Fuel-Idle-Air wiring, you should be able to zoom-in to read it or print in landscape
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18 ... irCtrl.gif

and
the IGN ckt., which is even bigger
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18 ... onHUGE.gif

There, that should keep you out of the ice and snow for a while.

Thanks.

Good info.

But the Fuel pump appears to have a body ground.

There should be a diagram of all the PCM connections. Don't get me wrong. You're the man.

I found 2 grounds in the trunk area. I havn't pulled the upper rear seat. My son needed his PC fixed. So, I got sidetracked. There are ways around this ground. But, I'd prefer to fix it. Thanks for the diagram. Dang Library. I have to lay in water to get more done. My Ex. was just here with my son. Fix his PC. My Lady is going to be here shortly. Weather is suppossed to warm up. May have fixed it already. No way to verifie. Yet. But. I can ready the wiring diagram. Looks like a body ground. The harness just goes up into the bottom. Havn't found the ground in the diagram you posted. It may be behind the upper rear seat.

God Bless,

And, thanks for all the help.

ME>>>>>>>>>

Just checked the read lead at the battery. Which I assume is the test lead. Won't light a lest light. Below 12 volts it appears. If, this is the fuel pump test lead??? I got a little insight on this lead from a previous response. Which leads to this question. Where's my 12 volts while running. Pump is pumping. Hmmmmmmmmm. Maybe we are getting warm.

LOL.

It is a great post.

God Bless,

Chris

[93RedSled-SSE]

The ground for the pump is G403, in the trunk. It's in that earlier picture of the trunk ground. It is also shown in in the schematic for "Fuel-Idle-Air wiring" I provided the link for in my last post.

BTW, I noticed the problem in your signature where the picture doesn't show. If you go back to photobucket, you need to copy the one that is for an image and has [img] as the prefix. Paste that one in your signature and it should work.

Forgot to mention the test lead. It is an INPUT. It only works when the pump relay is NOT energized. So, no voltage on it. However, if you jumper 12v from the battery to it and the key is off (FP relay de-energized) the pump SHOULD run, then.
---------------UPDATE:
Clarification on Oil Pressure Sender & FP Relay. I went searching when working another thread and found the description of operation from the manual. Not that everybody else doesn't already know the following, but..

• Fact: The PCM only energizes the FP Relay for 2 sec. with key on (start up). After the 2 sec., it turns the FP relay off and the only run path for the pump is via the OP sender switch, which should now be closed with engine run and oil pressure.

That will make it easier to understand how the test plug works. After 2 seconds of ON, the relay drops out and you CAN, then, test with the plug. Sorry for my errors in exactly how that all worked in my earlier statements.

[Christopher1watson]

The ground for the pump is G403, in the trunk. It's in that earlier picture of the trunk ground. It is also shown in in the schematic for "Fuel-Idle-Air wiring" I provided the link for in my last post.

BTW, I noticed the problem in your signature where the picture doesn't show. If you go back to photobucket, you need to copy the one that is for an image and has [img] as the prefix. Paste that one in your signature and it should work.

Forgot to mention the test lead. It is an INPUT. It only works when the pump relay is NOT energized. So, no voltage on it. However, if you jumper 12v from the battery to it and the key is off (FP relay de-energized) the pump SHOULD run, then.

Ok.

Thanks.

Time for a breather.

Yes.

I noticed the pic link is not working.

Ok.

Hmmmmm.

I havn't had time to check in with the site adminitstrator. OK.

Let me get the Seville off the ramps. I have to charge the battery. Put the bonne up on them. Check the harness by the sender.

I'm looking at the diagrams. Kids are interupting. OK.

It's iced over. LOL/ .......... Too.

I am so happy. See the answer coming. The other ground sounds so good.

Let me verifie and, get the beast in a position to fix.

God Bless,

And many thanks.

Let me catch up.

I'm sure this is an easy fix. LOL. As, soon as I/we can figure out what this fix is.

I have a set of wheels. Always. I just like my Bonne. She's special. Though/ I may have to drive something else. She's working fine. Not, cold enough to get her to act up.

I'm checking.

God Bless

And, Thanks,\

She may be fixed. Hmmmm. Not sure. Need some warm weather. To Verifie.

Let me dig into this new information.

Back soon.

ME>>>>>>>>

[harofreak00]

Your replies are filled with needless information. You don't need to update us on every aspect of your life. Not everyone has time to read these long replies.

Please keep the mechanical threads full of mechanical information. Thanks.

[BlackHawk99]

And, to take it a step further, there's no need to contact the site administrator regarding the issues with your signature. 93RedSled-SSE told you what you need to do to fix it.

Back to the issues with your car....