Post-Rebuild Expectations on 2000 SSEi

[rcox58]

About 2 months ago, I had a bad heater core and a blewn head gasket and the mechanic told me I had 2 options: rebuild to replace gaskets or have new engine installed. Not having the money for a new engine, I elected to have it rebuilt. Within a week of getting the car back after the rebuild, a coil pack went which they replaced for free. After a rattle developing suddenly this week, I'm now being told that the bearing in the block itself are now bad and the engine must be replaced - making the money I spend on the rebuild a complete waste. Shouldn't all the engine parts including these parts be checked during a proper engine rebuild. Shouldn't this problem have been detected so it could be addressed while the engine was disassembled? When we discussed uptions prior to the rebuild, there was no distinction made between "upper" and "lower" engine. Now the mechanic keeps stressing that they rebuilt the upper engine only. I can't help but feel the shop should be on the hook to fix the problem since it should have been uncovered during the original rebuild preventing me from essentially paying twice. Obviously I'm not experienced in what should have/could have been done so any input from you guys "in the know" will be huge. Thanks.

[Archon]

Odds are that you did not have a blown head gasket, as that is extremely rare with the 3800. You likely had a bad upper intake manifold, and maybe leaking lower intake gaskets. You can read about it here.
http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... =53&t=1061
Many shops not familiar with the 3800 will assume the problem is a leaky headgasket, as the outward symptoms will be similar. If they did a compression check first, they'd know the head gasket wasn't the problem.

When the intakes (and even the heads) are done, it is just the top end of the engine that is worked on. For what it takes to tear apart the lower, and check things, the cost would be quite high. They may, or may not, have found a problem.

When the upper goes, it starts bleeding coolant into the oil. If that is not fixed relatively soon, the coolant eats away at the rod bearings. Generally, the problem will show up within about 3 months so what you experienced is not unusual. You may want to ask the shop if they would give you a break on installing a good used engine. It would be wiser than rebuilding that one.

Edit - Disregard the information on the upper, as I missed that you are supercharged, and the super charger takes the place of the upper intake. However, the lower intake information is still accurate, and was likely your problem.

[underpressure03]

No, its not on them. Most engines can typically have the top end done without worrying about the bottom even after a blown head gasket. I was warned by my GM tech that he's seen many of these engines fail after redoing the just the intake manifold gaskets. If they knew these engines well, then they could've warned you that the bottom end COULD fail given the circumstances. Theyre likely not trying to screw you.

[underpressure03]

Odds are that you did not have a blown head gasket, as that is extremely rare with the 3800. You likely had a bad upper intake manifold, and maybe leaking lower intake gaskets. You can read about it here.
http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... =53&t=1061
Many shops not familiar with the 3800 will assume the problem is a leaky headgasket, as the outward symptoms will be similar. If they did a compression check first, they'd know the head gasket wasn't the problem.

When the intakes (and even the heads) are done, it is just the top end of the engine that is worked on. For what it takes to tear apart the lower, and check things, the cost would be quite high. They may, or may not, have found a problem.

When the upper goes, it starts bleeding coolant into the oil. If that is not fixed relatively soon, the coolant eats away at the rod bearings. Generally, the problem will show up within about 3 months so what you experienced is not unusual. You may want to ask the shop if they would give you a break on installing a good used engine. It would be wiser than rebuilding that one.

Beat me to it and better said.

[Archon]

Just a bit more verbiage...and only by seconds.

[01bonneSC]

If a shop ever tells me "Your engine needs to be rebuilt." Thats tearing down the motor to bare block, inspecting all parts, rebore, and replace ALL bearings(camshaft and crank), and putting it all back together.

OP,
Can we see a pic of the bill that they gave you? We need to see a parts break down of what you paid for.

Sounding kinda fishy to me.

EDIT: ok reread the OP, their verbage or rebuild if goofy to me, I would have said rebuild to replace head gaskets. I would just have said "we need to replace your head gaskets."

[01bonneSC]

Oh and also, they wouldnt have given you a new engine, they would have just bought a rebuilt one. They dont have new engine for these anymore.

[rcox58]

Great info so fast so thanks all. I will scan the bill and put it up shortly. I got a bit of a mixed response between my two posts - looks like the general consensus is the shop isn't really on the hook. I think the first reply is more accurate to what happened and I'm not trying to get over on the shop. I just needed an informed opinion as to whether they might be trying to avoid copping to missing something or not. And it seems I'm definitely at or past the "when is enough enough?" question. I have to decide if I'm better off putting in a refab now or just letting the car go. I keep thinking with all the repairs recently done, how much else can really go wrong? At some point, won't I be sitting on a mechanically sound car that should keep me out of the poorhouse for quite a while longer? I know it's all subjective now...just curious what you guys think. The whole mess is really compounded by the fact that I'm out of work and can't get into a car payment that would be required for something I like as much as "Blackie".

[rcox58]

I'm pretty computer literate but this site doesn't seem to be very user friendly. How do I attach a picture to show the bills I mentioned?

[harofreak00]

http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... ?f=9&t=146

[rcox58]

Thank you for the how to post.

First 2 pages are the bill for the recent rebuild. Subsequent pages are just for kicks to give you an idea of how much I've just sunk into the car making me reluctant to give it up. Other than that, over the prior 4 - 5 years, I probably spent another $10K on repairs...much of which was general maintenance/wear and tear type of stuff. I just have so much $ in I can't stomach writing it all off to a loss.

[underpressure03]

Good god....looks like theyre charging dealer rates ffs. Wow. If only I enjoyed repairing cars rather than building them. Off topic, I know. Just sayin.

[deano55]

If I'm reading the bill right, 4100.00 to do what they did on the upper end?? If thats right they are way out of line compared to around me!!

[Archon]

They did a lot of work other than the top end. Did you need a new power steering pump and lines, and a catalytic converter? They also charged premium prices. Too bad you didn't find us before you had the work done.

[rcox58]

Yes, I needed the new CAT as the start to all my problems. The old one was choking out the engine so I would stall out under a load. I imagine it went bad due to the car not running optimally. I had a Meineke install a universal CAT and that allowed the car to take the load of opening it up with the supercharger but I almost immedately started having cooling system problems that led me to the shop to fix that. That's where I learned of the rest of the problems. They offered to replace or rebuild depending on my finances. I had to opt for he rebuild. Within a few weeks, the steering pump crapped out and leaked all over my driveway. I took it back to have that diagnosed and repaired. In between the rebuild and that, a coil pack went and they replaced that for free. Now, faced with junking the car or having it fixed, it makes me sick that junking it will be like throwing away all the money I spent...not to mention having to find another car. Archon's explanation of upper motor rebuild vs. lower makes a lot of sense and I'm sure that will be their arguement.

I guess at this point my only options are a used engine or junk the car. It's aready in the shop that did all the work. Does anyone know what I should expect to pay for a used engine and insallation? I am certainly going to try and have the shop work with me on the price based on what they did previously. The mechanic said he would look for a used engine for me but I imagine I should be doing that, too. I jus don't know where to begin other than starting from scratch on Google.

You should see the amount of work I had previously done about 4 year ago. I think I'll put that up so you can see how much it feels like I'm throwing away to junk the car.

[01bonneSC]

Car-part.com

And I would stop saying rebuild, they just replaced the head gaskets, and other askets. They didnt rebuild anything.

[rcox58]

Point taken on the "rebuild". I think that's the basis of my argument with them. For what they charged me and calling it a rebuild to me, I'm going to argue that they need to share the cost with me at the very least. Thanks for the info.

[01bonneSC]

They also should have told you that your bottom end could be damaged from the coolant leak.

You can get used engines for probably around 800-1K. probably another $500 to install.

[leatherneck]

I went through similar issues last year. I bought an engine then that one failed after a week after having a shop put it in for me... Being as it was a used engine, there wasn't a warranty as I was trying to get it done cheaper..

However, what I learned was get the engine from a reputible salvage yard with a warranty... Then in the labor charges from the first I figured I could buy everything that I need to replace it myself... as far as the engine goes, its running great. But now.. the transmission is out (at least till this weekend if all goes well :D)

[jedwards83]

Find a local independent repair shop who you trust. Ask around, friends, neighbors, etc. to find one.

Quit taking your car to Mr. Tire, unless it's for tires. These people clearly misdiagnosed the problem, charging you an arm and a leg to fix something that likely didn't need to be fixed. That counts as a bad experience in my book. Not surprising, consider those chains are usually staffed by 22 year old dropouts, who managed to completed a couple semesters at a "tech college," who care FAR more about tying one on at the bar nearby after work than they do about fixing your car!

Sure the lower intake manifold would only delay the inevitable, the rod bearings getting trashed from coolant in the oil, but at least you'd only have to stomach one large repair and not two!

Unbelievable what these places get away with.