Series 2 L67 Laking Power *Data Vid Added*

[l67poweredlss]

You'll only have 2 MAP sensors if the Olds has a factory boost gauge in the dash. Let us know.

No, the LSS does not have a boost gague. I have no clue what kind of boost the car has ever produced. I wish I did, may have made it easier to diagnose this problem. Now i'm starting to wonder if my scantool is running bogus readings. Today on the ride to work I unplugged the MAF sensor and somehow is was still reading the same. How does that work? Anyways, I should have back pressure readings tomorrow.

[charliemax]

Charlie, I know it is not your car. I was a little upset with you because you called my info "quibble". That info was given to try to save l67poweredlss from replacing a perfectly good MAP or boost sensor or both. I even stated that the two sensor may have the same part number, meaning they could be swapped if you want to eliminate the possibility of there being a bad one.

For you to call my info quibble, after I stopped l67poweredlss from destroying his boost actuator by dumping oil into it as you suggested, is not ok with me. It is actually because of you attacking me that I don't want anything more to do with this thread. I will still give l67poweredlss advice on this if he wants it, but it will be done via PM now if he wants.

Charlie, the last time we butted heads, I still gave you advice. You ignored my advice and shotgunned parts at your car. Bypassing all tests and just guessing at a part. You claim to be wiser with age, but all I see is an ignorant, stubborn old man.
Feel free to bash the living daylights out of me now, as I will not be back on here to defend myself a second time.

fatcat,

I was the one writing the quibble. And the reason you think I ignored your advice on the ABS system, was because you didn't take the time to read the post already in the thread where i outlined the exact same test for the WSS.

But it wasn't needed, because I confirmed the BCM failure on the Tech II and the mechanic represented excellent customer service, plus tested the circuit.

I picked up one at the yard, and tested for voltage flow.

It cost $18 and took less than an hour. That's for a $700 dealer part (which at the time was dealer backordered without an availability date) with 2 hours of labor in the Peterson's. In my area, that's $100-$135/hr.

I can't think of a more time and cost effective problem-solving approach to that situation. If anybody can, I would like to hear it.

http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... &hilit=ABS

I blew my cork, because you were lecturing me about "sneaking" around, and getting something for nothing from the technicians, for which i had made appointments and paid for. You did this without the slightest bit of information to support the derision.

Now you are at it again by misrepresenting that i was taking a "shotgun" approach of parts, that is not true... if you actually read the thread. The exhange between wilwren and I was a concession to the realities of auto fixes. You can cover everything thoroughly on best information. Have the right part. Reduce risk to minuscule, and the fates conspire to give you a bizarre result. Which is the part of the humor of doing your own work. A childhood friend who has had a garage for 40 yrs and was rated "The Most honest shop " and the "Best Mechanic Shop" in Philadelphia Magazine, always has the latest story of how "best practices" can yield hysterically funny results. It's just life.

If you claim your above rant was not directed at me, even though only my name was present in the quotes, then I have to take your word, although it was poor communication.

Making it personal and calling me names is an obvious ab hominem, but I it doesn't diminish my thought that you actually want to help people on the board, yet have the tact of a baseball bat. At the same time, you have a wide streak of wise*ss in you, but I happen to enjoy that immensely (and spent a good number of years at it) when it is effectively applied to humor. Which you do from time to time.

This site has many quality individuals still associated with it. But like everything else, it changes. My experience to return active as a contributor is of no value, if i don't enjoy it. I have a couple hundred problem resolutions archived at the other (old?) board, it's better that I take some time over there.

Oh, I was going to pass this on for the Boost Control check, it's pretty simple and saves time..

He did this, but make sure the actuator isn't sticking or anything. Something I didn't tell him to do was check the lines for chickens*** or rat droppings from being in that barn so long.

Unhook the vaccum source line from the boost control solenoid (BCS) and hook the vacuum source directly to the top of the BCA at the vaccum port.

Check for BCA movement as follows. Engine off, arm fully retracted (full boost position). Engine on at idle, arm fully extended (zero boost position). Give the throttle a shot and observe the arm move from extended to retracted.

Take the car for a short ride and try a couple of WOT's. With this hook up you should have full boost. DO NOT LEAVE IT SET UP THIS WAY OTHER THAN A VERY SHORT TEST DRIVE. If the BCA moves as described, replace the BCS. If the BCA does not move as described, replace the BCA.

That'll identify or deduct the Boost Control as a culprit.

To back up the missed items on the FSM list, the MAP needs to be volt checked. careful because the value range is different on the L36 and L67

The EGR reading needs to be checked at an Autozone or whatever, make sure the tindle (pindle?) moves and you aren't getting a 0% or 100% reading.

One of our mystifying problems of the MAP is that he should be getting a P0106 MAP Performance problem at WOT. The PCM is taking a serious look at MAF and MAP numbers. It's not listed in the standard codes, it's one of the double secret GM codes.

One reason he may not be getting it is that ZZP PCM, not only Opens the Loop, but also then disregards the normal MAP S-II diagnosis parameters for optimum performance. Actually it uses some tweaked Series I fuel tables. That was of a couple of years ago, somebody might want to check

[l67poweredlss]

Well, it appears backpressure is not the issue. The shop was only able to get up to 4Krpm but he said that if there was any sign of a clog there would be at least 5psi. In my case there was barely 1psi. He would have driven it to run the full powerband but to say the roads were *shoot* would be an understatement.

A- We need to know if the arm on the boost bypass valve is moving 45 or 90 degrees.
B- I already mentioned a few things that can cause low boost but left out a couple biggies. The supercharger belt could be slipping or the PCM could be pulling boost.

The valve is moving almost 90 degrees. There appears to be no belt slippage, never smell burnt rubber. I need to test the MAP sensor and pull my vacuum lines and clean them. If that doesn't work then I need to find someone with a scan tool that displays knock. Am I leaving anything out?

[Mechanical Mike]

Next we need confirmation that the plug wires aren't near the O2 sensor or wiring & that there's no signs of fuel in the vacuum line to the FPR. If those two things check out OK then either change the front O2 sensor or get us a scan of the MAF, long term & short term fuel trims. Get two scans, one at idle & one at 2,000 rpms. Do the scans with the engine at operating temp with the car in park.

I'd also like to see a scan for knock. If you can't get that done soon then you should remove the spark plugs & look them over. It doesn't take long to destroy spark plugs if you have knock. Are you using premium gasoline?

[geofffinlay]

Somewhere below 4000rpm, the PCM cuts the S/C out. The MAP readings taken @ WOT are of little use to assess S/C operation. I got this from a GM tech last weekend. I don't want to get back involved with this car, but I hate to see you guys potentially chasing your tales. Check out a known good vehicle. If you find different, I'll ask the tech again.

Nice to know you're communicating

Geoff

[l67poweredlss]

Next we need confirmation that the plug wires aren't near the O2 sensor or wiring & that there's no signs of fuel in the vacuum line to the FPR. If those two things check out OK then either change the front O2 sensor or get us a scan of the MAF, long term & short term fuel trims. Get two scans, one at idle & one at 2,000 rpms. Do the scans with the engine at operating temp with the car in park.

I'd also like to see a scan for knock. If you can't get that done soon then you should remove the spark plugs & look them over. It doesn't take long to destroy spark plugs if you have knock. Are you using premium gasoline?

The O2 sensor wire is at least 2 inches away for the closest ones. I'll check that vacuum line tomorrow. Here is a video of a scan using the method you describe. Scan occurred after a 30 minute drive. I'll have to find someone that has a scan tool for knock. Trust me, it would have been the first thing I checked. lol I run BP 92 oct fuel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZxShLUcWMQ

[Mechanical Mike]

When you check the vacuum line take a look at the air filter. I'm wondering if some critter might have built a nest in there while the car was in storage. It's a long shot but would explain both the low boost & rich O2 readings.

The fuel trims look pretty good, if there's a vacuum leak it's a small one. What are the front O2 readings when cruising at 50 - 60 mph?

[l67poweredlss]

What are the front O2 readings when cruising at 50 - 60 mph?

Between 0.67 and 0.79. The air box is clean, however the K&N is really dry needs to be oiled.

[Mechanical Mike]

How old is the O2 sensor?

[l67poweredlss]

Changed it back in 05-06. I guess it wouldn't hurt to look at it. I really should clean off everything that is metal in there because all metal that got exposed to the air in storage is corroded.

[Mechanical Mike]

It looks bad to me but I don't understand why it's not setting a code. Do you know what brand you put in?

[l67poweredlss]

I think it was just a factory Delco. How should the values read if it were working correctly?

[Mechanical Mike]

IIRC, they should keep toggling between about 50 & 850. You could hook it up to the G8 & see what it does.

[l67poweredlss]

Well, I checked all the vac lines and they were all clear with no fuel or anything in them. I'll change out the front O2 tomorrow. I'm starting to get this bad feeling this is electrical. The other day when I plugged in my scanner the climate control went all erratic and now the clock is 3 hrs off. The craziest thing is that when I unplugged the MAF sensor and scanned it, the readings didn't change. How does that work?

[Mechanical Mike]

The other day when I plugged in my scanner the climate control went all erratic and now the clock is 3 hrs off. The craziest thing is that when I unplugged the MAF sensor and scanned it, the readings didn't change. How does that work?

Yeah, you certainly have some strange things going on. I recently discovered that my Autotap scanner randomly causes the PCM to reset itself. This has happened on both my 98SE & my son's 99 SSEi. Can you take a picture of the sensor you unplugged? Maybe it was the wrong sensor.

[l67poweredlss]

Replaced the O2 sensor today, they are expensive! It now toggles between 50 and 850 like you said. No change in performance and timing advance is still @ -23 under WOT. The MAF sensor is on the intake tube, correct? Thats the one I unplugged and it continued to read the same. Is there somewhere I can get a diagram of the L67 and its components. I want to remove the knock sensor, but I have no clue where it is.

[00Beast]

MAF Sensor is on the throttle body. IAT sensor is on the intake tube.

[Mechanical Mike]

Beast is correct, sounds you unplugged the IAT (intake air temperature) sensor. Picture below shows about half the MAF sensor. If you want to remove the sensor you'll need a security star bit. You can clean it by spraying it with CRC MAF sensor cleaner or gently swabbing it with a cotton swab soaked with rubbing alcohol.

Good news on the O2 sensor. Price a MAF sensor if you think the O2 is expensive. Hopefully you picked up a Delphi/Delco or Denso & not a Bosch. There are two knock sensors, on the block just a little below each cylinder head. If you really have knock, the engine could be severely damaged by driving with them unplugged. I'd rather see you put in new spark plugs. Most of us use NGK TR 55.

[charliemax]

Not here to get in the way of the effective trouble-shooting. Just wanted to remind that the Denso O2s are much less expensive than the AC/Delco and seem to have a consensus vote of approval by those who have used it.

That front O2 sensor reading bugged me from Day One. If they aren't the direct problem, they are so important, they can easily throw cover over the real problem. (sorry for the kibitz, please return to regularly scheduled programming.)

[l67poweredlss]

Not here to get in the way of the effective trouble-shooting. Just wanted to remind that the Denso O2s are much less expensive than the AC/Delco and seem to have a consensus vote of approval by those who have used it.

That front O2 sensor reading bugged me from Day One. If they aren't the direct problem, they are so important, they can easily throw cover over the real problem. (sorry for the kibitz, please return to regularly scheduled programming.)

Yeah, the AC Delco was expensive. Its reading like it should now. I cleaned the MAF today and unplugged a drove with it off for a little bit. Nothing has changed.

Good news on the O2 sensor. Price a MAF sensor if you think the O2 is expensive. Hopefully you picked up a Delphi/Delco or Denso & not a Bosch. There are two knock sensors, on the block just a little below each cylinder head. If you really have knock, the engine could be severely damaged by driving with them unplugged. I'd rather see you put in new spark plugs. Most of us use NGK TR 55.

I have pretty much replaced every tune up item now and added an important mod (3"dp) that I should have years ago. The plugs are the last item. However, being only 4 year old ~30K NGK TR 55s I don't see how they can be bad. I can take a picture of one and show it to you, see what you think. I just have this bad gut feeling this is a hidden electrical problem that i'll never find. I might just go ahead and change those plugs anyways just for *shoot*.