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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:18 pm 
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I'm planning on doing my UIM and LIM in the next few weeks. I've been thinking of using the APN kit, but I also came across this:
http://ken-co.com/manifold/default.htm

This kit would allow me to either reuse my existing OEM UIM, or a new UIM from GM, and have the benefits of an insulating sleeve for the EGR stovepipe.

Has anyone had any experience with this kit?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:01 pm 
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If I am doing the gaskets on any 3800 I am going to do it correctly with the APN kit and either the Felpro series 2 lower or GM dealer aluminum frame lower gaskets. I have also seen alot of these factory upper manifolds have a gap on the TB from warpage. It only makes sense to get the correct replacement intake and do it right and never do it again. To me this kit is just a type of band aid to the deteriorated intake. Also the APN kit comes with all the necessary orings and gaskets needed to correctly do the job. It is up to you how you want to do the job so this is just my 2 cents.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:09 pm 
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From what I can tell, this Ken-co kit has a similar insulator sleeve contained in the APN kit, so I don't see the Ken-co kit as a band-aid solution, especially if I use a new OEM intake.

I'm not saying I won't go with the APN kit. I'm just looking at a couple of options before I decide. As far as I can see, the best choices will be the APN kit or the Ken-co kit.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:38 pm 
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enslow wrote:
From what I can tell, this Ken-co kit has a similar insulator sleeve contained in the APN kit, so I don't see the Ken-co kit as a band-aid solution, especially if I use a new OEM intake.

I'm not saying I won't go with the APN kit. I'm just looking at a couple of options before I decide. As far as I can see, the best choices will be the APN kit or the Ken-co kit.


Ditto with Blownville. Use the APN kit and the aluminum gaskets, unless you'd like to do the job twice.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:16 pm 
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Can you tell me what the APN kit fixes that the Ken-co kit does not?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:07 pm 
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Quote:
# On the upper plenum, clean the damaged area of debris and sand the pitted area to a smooth finish.
# Using the epoxy supplied in the kit, coat the new adapter bushing and install it into the upper plenum. Make certain that the sleeve is centered properly to allow the EFR port tube to fit freely. Allow about 10-15 minutes for the epoxy to cure.
# Sand the cured epoxy so that it is smooth to both sides of the upper plenum.


There is a lot that can go wrong here. What if yours is so bad that the sleeve will not work. You are then waiting for another part to come in. If you don't get it to seal all the way around, you are going to have the same problem.

Here are 2 items I thought was kind of funny they added to the sales pitch:

Quote:
The new repair kit from KEN-CO Industries forgoes the process of replacing both the upper and lower manifolds, as is suggested by General Motors at a retail cost of $1200-$1400.


and:

Quote:
The entire process should take under three hours to R &R the upper plenum as well as replace the EGR passage tube and correct the top plenums problem with our new sleeve.


As others have stated, I did and would again, go with the APN kit and be done with it and not have to worry about it again.

Just noticed this:

Quote:
How to Order:


o No Retail Sales


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:52 pm 
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enslow wrote:
From what I can tell, this Ken-co kit has a similar insulator sleeve contained in the APN kit, so I don't see the Ken-co kit as a band-aid solution, especially if I use a new OEM intake.

I'm not saying I won't go with the APN kit. I'm just looking at a couple of options before I decide. As far as I can see, the best choices will be the APN kit or the Ken-co kit.


Back in the day before there was such a kit as the Ken-Co, I ordered some 7/8 stainless tubing and a set of reamers and repaired a number of UIMs for members here. I have one I did in my car and it's lasted 120,000 miles. I also used a 5/8" stovepipe Bill Buttermore fabricated.

However, had we had a chance to buy a UIM with the sleeve already molded in, I would have used one. The problem is that you don't know how long the epoxy is going to last, and as above, your UIM may be trashed too badly to sleeve.

Since you need to do the job anyway, my recommendation after a lot of experience is to get the APN UIM, do the job, and forget about it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Thanks Bob,

I was counting on probably replacing the intake anyway. The reason I was thinking of using the Ken-co kit is that I've seen a lot of aftermarket stuff that might be better designed in one aspect (the stove pipe), but more poorly designed in other areas. I thought that to use the OEM intake with the Ken-co kit might be the best combination. However, you made a very good point that the APN intake was made with the shield molded into the plastic rather than epoxying a sleeve in.

Oh, and I was never planning on ignoring the LIM. That will be changed to the updated GM gasket irregardless of what I do the the UIM.

Now the question I have yet to answer is how to get an APN kit into Canada. Depending on the company, shipping costs can be 3 times or more that of shipping within the US. Local shops don't seem to stock things like this here.

One last question, there seems to be one other kit I missed out there that seems almost identical to the APN kit, that is the "SureFix" . Is this just another name for APN's kit or is this another manifold kit itself?

I'm not losing much coolant right now, only a 100 ml over several months. However, as teacher, I don't have much time during the winter to fix things, so it's best I fix it now. I'd rather take care of both the LIM and UIM and have peace of mind.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:18 pm 
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If you want a cheap, effective fix for the problem for about $2, just drill out the holes in the lower UIM to about 15/32, take two 1/2" core plugs and coat them with epoxy, and tap them into place, the put some epoxy on top them (Making sure it doesn't protrude above the machined surface.)

I've never been convinced throttle body heat is necessary, given the very close proximity of the exhaust loop to the bottom of the throttle body, even in a cold climate like yours.

I did this for a buddy's car locally and it's running fine about four years later. (noting that I live in California.)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:43 pm 
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The core plugs would solve the coolant loss issues. However, I still assume I'd want to change the LIM gaskets to the new GM style (silver colour), and I'd still want to take care of the EGR eroding the intake.

Honestly, the way things are importing parts from you guys in the states (no offense, it's just the way things are), it would be easier to order a new manifold from GM, get a piece of 7/8" stainless, and see if I can get a guy to make a 5/8" stovepipe like you did. Note on the Automotive Parts Network shipping page
http://www.ineedparts.com/policies/ship ... ation.html
there is a line that says:
"International Orders may be accepted if they meet our rigid guidelines. Please call our Customer Service Department at (888) 530-PART for details."

I've never seen a statement quite like that before.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Any of you guys in Canada (especially in the Vancouver area) know how to get the APN kit fairly easily? What does APN mean by "meet our strict guidelines"?

I'm not trying to go cheap on this job. I will be doing the LIM and the UIM. The source of the intake is the only tricky part for me.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:37 pm 
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enslow wrote:
The core plugs would solve the coolant loss issues. However, I still assume I'd want to change the LIM gaskets to the new GM style (silver colour), and I'd still want to take care of the EGR eroding the intake.


Once the coolant is excluded from the throttle body loop (that's all it is, a loop) your erosion problems are over. Whether your current UIM has a warped throttle body mount (many do) is another question.

I think you're on the right track, however. If there are indeed import problems with the parts, perhaps the way to go is to buy a new UIM from the dealer and plug the LIM as described above.

There was a pretty spirited discussion here on whether throttle body heat (which is the only reason for the coolant in the UIM) is even needed. Since the 3800 has SFI and is thus immune from vapor lock, I was (and am) of the opinion that it is not.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:46 pm 
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Hey so do you have to replace the LIM? I thought just the gaskets, and the UIM?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:46 pm 
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LIM? No. Just the gaskets. Some dealers do that though, but it's completely unnecessary.

UIM and LIM gaskets.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:11 pm 
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If you live in a colder climate, cold, humid air can ice up the throttle body. I had it happen on a car with a very exposed TB and a CAI.

Just get the APN UIM and call it a day.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:20 am 
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Thanks guys,

I contacted APN and they are able to ship it to my address. I don't know what they meant by "strict conditions". I'm not sure if I'll be able to get to it this summer or not now. I've been doing valve stem seals on my sister's Grand Marquis (overhead cam!). It's going well, but you sure have to be patient getting those keepers in when you have an OH cam. Oh, and all the electrical stuff that had to be disconnected. It's a good car, but couldn't Ford have chosen different routing for stuff?

Anyway, I'm not really going through coolant, so I may wait until next summer. I just wanted to get it done so I wouldn't be doing it one weekday evening. That wouldn't be nice.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:25 am 
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Hey so I have read all the tech forums about doing the UIM and LIM gaskets, has anyone used APN's LIM gaskets? They look like the GM LIM gaskets. (metal) And is the elbow available from APN? How about LIM gaskets in metal from fel pro? I was in PEP BOYS yesterday and the LIM they had were 2nd generations but were plastic... You guys really have a fabulous resource going on here. Thanks in advance!



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:24 pm 
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jammerx wrote:
Hey so I have read all the tech forums about doing the UIM and LIM gaskets, has anyone used APN's LIM gaskets? They look like the GM LIM gaskets. (metal) And is the elbow available from APN? How about LIM gaskets in metal from fel pro? I was in PEP BOYS yesterday and the LIM they had were 2nd generations but were plastic... You guys really have a fabulous resource going on here. Thanks in advance!


They look like the metal ones to me.

The elbow is available in the "Help!" section at you local parts puppies-Kragen, Schuck, Autozone, etc. They're about $7.

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