Hi All

Last week at some point my car started to run pretty rough and I the SES came on so i got home and pulled the code is was for the mass air flow so i cleaned and and code was gone but a few days later started to run really bad worse then is every has and there was no SES light so i doubled checked everything i touch earliy in the week. But later that day SES came on and off and then staied on and is still on till this day I pulled the code and its a code 41 (cam sensor). My question what would be best to do at this point? and where is the cam sensor located? Any ideas would be great.

Thanks Keith

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2001 SSEi Bumbles
Angel Eyes ~ Cleared Corners ~ Tinted Tails ~ Intense FWI ~ 20% Tint ~ 180 Drilled T-Stat ~ GXP Brake & Suspension Upgrade ~ Alternator Rewire ~ Intense Shift Kit ~ Headers ~ Tr 6's

1992 Bonneville SSEi (Sold)
Fan over ride~NGK Tr 55's~180 Drilled t-stat~Clear Corners~Angel Eyes~Tinted Tails~Magnaflow Cat

It's rearward of the water pump a few inches, and I think a little below. It's got one bolt holding it in and is shaped kind of like a teardrop. Take the sensor out, and turn the engine over by hand. Use a mirror or remove the passenger front wheel and splash shield to watch through the sensor's hole for the magnet nub in the cma gear as it turns. If you get two full engine revolutions and no magnet, you need a new magnet. You can glue a new one in place with JB Weld and Bill Buttermore's procedure. It would likely leave magnet/plastic carrier debris in the engine, though. The safest thing to do is remove the oil pan, front cover, and timing set to put a new magnet into the cam gear (it clips in from the back side, brilliant!). And clean out debris from the oil pan and front cover area.

If the magnet is there in one piece, I'd replace the sensor and/or check out the wiring real good.

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WHITE WHINE - 1992 SSE Supercharged 236.26 ci (.040 Over) 15.090 at 90.2 MPH on old engine w/ slipping trans & melted O2 sensor - Gen 3 M62 and matching TB, Gen 2 Pully, Zillamotorsports Ported LIM, YT 1.72 Roller Rockers, SII FPR & Injectors, Hypertech Thermomaster chip w/ 160 Thermo, TransGo Shift Kit, Infinity/Pioneer Speakers & a 10" Alpine Type R Sub, all the watts, 140 amp Alternator, Ricepipe CAI w/ heatshield, Pilot Angel Eye Foglights, Clear Corners, '02 17" Chrome Bent 5's, Magnaflow F-Body Muffler and Hi-flo Cat, Ceramic Coated Ported Exhaust Manifolds, Fan Override, Monroe Reflex struts, red calipers
2009 G8 GT - Sport Red Metallic, loaded, SOLO Axlebacks, Rotofab Intake, Tuned, autodim mirror, removed intake manifold cover, HSV GTS triple gauge pod, two tone red-hot shifter and HSV SuperSport steering wheel, GXP rear sway bar and diffuser, 3.45 diff and various Camaro suspension bits, LED Taillights

That would be Padgett's procedure, iirc. I remove the front cover to do 'em because, like you said, I don't like the idea of random bits of metal floating around moving gears.

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1998 3.8 Dodge Caravan 214K
2000 3.3 Dodge Caravan 175K
1949 Plymouth Special Deluxe 4-dr sedan 25K (needs some work!)

Ooops, my bad.

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WHITE WHINE - 1992 SSE Supercharged 236.26 ci (.040 Over) 15.090 at 90.2 MPH on old engine w/ slipping trans & melted O2 sensor - Gen 3 M62 and matching TB, Gen 2 Pully, Zillamotorsports Ported LIM, YT 1.72 Roller Rockers, SII FPR & Injectors, Hypertech Thermomaster chip w/ 160 Thermo, TransGo Shift Kit, Infinity/Pioneer Speakers & a 10" Alpine Type R Sub, all the watts, 140 amp Alternator, Ricepipe CAI w/ heatshield, Pilot Angel Eye Foglights, Clear Corners, '02 17" Chrome Bent 5's, Magnaflow F-Body Muffler and Hi-flo Cat, Ceramic Coated Ported Exhaust Manifolds, Fan Override, Monroe Reflex struts, red calipers
2009 G8 GT - Sport Red Metallic, loaded, SOLO Axlebacks, Rotofab Intake, Tuned, autodim mirror, removed intake manifold cover, HSV GTS triple gauge pod, two tone red-hot shifter and HSV SuperSport steering wheel, GXP rear sway bar and diffuser, 3.45 diff and various Camaro suspension bits, LED Taillights

Hey guys thatnks for the input.
So i took the cam sensor out could really see in to see if the magnet was there, so I cleaned the sensor really good but i noticed i have a oil leak some where on the pasenger side of the engine but the oil looked reeally fresh like it was never used just werid to me, and it looks like that the oil leak in around where the harness connects to the sensor I cleaned that the best i could and unhooked the battery for a bit SES light was gone for about 1 min then came back..so looks like im going to be buying a new sensor this week.

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2001 SSEi Bumbles
Angel Eyes ~ Cleared Corners ~ Tinted Tails ~ Intense FWI ~ 20% Tint ~ 180 Drilled T-Stat ~ GXP Brake & Suspension Upgrade ~ Alternator Rewire ~ Intense Shift Kit ~ Headers ~ Tr 6's

1992 Bonneville SSEi (Sold)
Fan over ride~NGK Tr 55's~180 Drilled t-stat~Clear Corners~Angel Eyes~Tinted Tails~Magnaflow Cat

So did you verify the interrupter was still there? A new sensor does no good without it.

This is what you want to see:


Using a mirror and flashlight, you can see it like this:

I don't know if this would apply to you, but I'll add it for thinking down the line if the problem persists for seemingly no reason..

I had the same DTC for my '95 SE. The '95s are the first Series II, but they are more like a hybrid of Series I and II when it comes to systems and diagnosis. I'm only describing what I ran into with the '95...

First, when my PCM/ECM threw that code, the car would run unsteady, particularly present at idle. This is because the PCM uses "average" fuel/air/ignition values. It's to protect the engine from wicked detonation, while it can't get a good cam position reading.

A good friend and mechanic, who still uses a '93 SE as his DD, told me to be careful with that message. The cam and crankshaft sensors are on the same circuit to the ICM harness. The reason I was talking to him, was because I had replaced the cam position sensor and still got the message.

The message can be a false positive if anything on that circuit is having a problem. The wires are light gauge and their signal is minuscule. the smallest wire knick, short or soiled connection, can pop the message. When i was researching it, quite often it would occur after somebody replaced their water pump. Jostling around on the drive side of the engine would do it.

I cleaned/replaced both sensors, wires, ICM harness, and ICM. I had to have the mechanic do the crankshaft sensor. It is an absolute bugger, because it's located on the harmonic balancer. Doing it in the driveway, you need a funky setup of extensions and about 350 lbs of torque.

Normally that should take care of the problem, but I have a '95. I'm on my third PCM. And i have a 4th as a spare, which i know is a good one. I could pick them up at the boneyard for $20. '94s had more than usual problems, but '95s were the winning year for crapped out PCMs. In my case it was the PCM.

If I got that message again (and didn't have the spare PCM), I would check/clean everything, look for the magnet, and replace the cam sensor. If that didn't work, I would get a PCM and try it. Because it costs a lot less than an hour of labor and a new crankshaft sensor.

FWIW.

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Hi again

I didnt see the interrupter there when I turned the engine by hand. So it looks like i need to put one in, does any one have a write on the correct way to do this and would i need any certin tool for the job. I just want to make sure i have all i need in one shot.

Thanks Keith

_________________

2001 SSEi Bumbles
Angel Eyes ~ Cleared Corners ~ Tinted Tails ~ Intense FWI ~ 20% Tint ~ 180 Drilled T-Stat ~ GXP Brake & Suspension Upgrade ~ Alternator Rewire ~ Intense Shift Kit ~ Headers ~ Tr 6's

1992 Bonneville SSEi (Sold)
Fan over ride~NGK Tr 55's~180 Drilled t-stat~Clear Corners~Angel Eyes~Tinted Tails~Magnaflow Cat

Here's the JBweld through the cam sensor hole write-up:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/p/a/padgett46/cammag.htm

The other way is to remove the timing cover and cam gear to snap the magnet in from the back.

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WHITE WHINE - 1992 SSE Supercharged 236.26 ci (.040 Over) 15.090 at 90.2 MPH on old engine w/ slipping trans & melted O2 sensor - Gen 3 M62 and matching TB, Gen 2 Pully, Zillamotorsports Ported LIM, YT 1.72 Roller Rockers, SII FPR & Injectors, Hypertech Thermomaster chip w/ 160 Thermo, TransGo Shift Kit, Infinity/Pioneer Speakers & a 10" Alpine Type R Sub, all the watts, 140 amp Alternator, Ricepipe CAI w/ heatshield, Pilot Angel Eye Foglights, Clear Corners, '02 17" Chrome Bent 5's, Magnaflow F-Body Muffler and Hi-flo Cat, Ceramic Coated Ported Exhaust Manifolds, Fan Override, Monroe Reflex struts, red calipers
2009 G8 GT - Sport Red Metallic, loaded, SOLO Axlebacks, Rotofab Intake, Tuned, autodim mirror, removed intake manifold cover, HSV GTS triple gauge pod, two tone red-hot shifter and HSV SuperSport steering wheel, GXP rear sway bar and diffuser, 3.45 diff and various Camaro suspension bits, LED Taillights

Hi again

I was wonder if any one knew how to test the cam sensor wiring with a multimeter Im talking about the pigtail end i want to make im gettin the correct info/power to the sensor.


Thanks Keith

_________________

2001 SSEi Bumbles
Angel Eyes ~ Cleared Corners ~ Tinted Tails ~ Intense FWI ~ 20% Tint ~ 180 Drilled T-Stat ~ GXP Brake & Suspension Upgrade ~ Alternator Rewire ~ Intense Shift Kit ~ Headers ~ Tr 6's

1992 Bonneville SSEi (Sold)
Fan over ride~NGK Tr 55's~180 Drilled t-stat~Clear Corners~Angel Eyes~Tinted Tails~Magnaflow Cat

Let me know if this pic lost too much to read.

Key on, engine off.

Voltage between A & B should be between 5 and 7 volts

Voltage between B & C should be between 8 and 11 volts

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WHITE WHINE - 1992 SSE Supercharged 236.26 ci (.040 Over) 15.090 at 90.2 MPH on old engine w/ slipping trans & melted O2 sensor - Gen 3 M62 and matching TB, Gen 2 Pully, Zillamotorsports Ported LIM, YT 1.72 Roller Rockers, SII FPR & Injectors, Hypertech Thermomaster chip w/ 160 Thermo, TransGo Shift Kit, Infinity/Pioneer Speakers & a 10" Alpine Type R Sub, all the watts, 140 amp Alternator, Ricepipe CAI w/ heatshield, Pilot Angel Eye Foglights, Clear Corners, '02 17" Chrome Bent 5's, Magnaflow F-Body Muffler and Hi-flo Cat, Ceramic Coated Ported Exhaust Manifolds, Fan Override, Monroe Reflex struts, red calipers
2009 G8 GT - Sport Red Metallic, loaded, SOLO Axlebacks, Rotofab Intake, Tuned, autodim mirror, removed intake manifold cover, HSV GTS triple gauge pod, two tone red-hot shifter and HSV SuperSport steering wheel, GXP rear sway bar and diffuser, 3.45 diff and various Camaro suspension bits, LED Taillights

thank you for the pic.. But how do i tell whats A B or C? and on the PCM Is it going to be labeled BA12 on it? one more think does it matter if i take the lugs out when turning engine by hand?


Thanks again Keith

Ps I just doubled checked to see if the magnet was there and it is dont know how i misses it at first. Im guessing they gave me a bad CPS or a wireing issuse..im gonna go and get a new sensor and see if that works. But is there a way to test my old one and to see if it bad?

_________________

2001 SSEi Bumbles
Angel Eyes ~ Cleared Corners ~ Tinted Tails ~ Intense FWI ~ 20% Tint ~ 180 Drilled T-Stat ~ GXP Brake & Suspension Upgrade ~ Alternator Rewire ~ Intense Shift Kit ~ Headers ~ Tr 6's

1992 Bonneville SSEi (Sold)
Fan over ride~NGK Tr 55's~180 Drilled t-stat~Clear Corners~Angel Eyes~Tinted Tails~Magnaflow Cat

Pin A should be a brown and white wire. B (ground) is in the middle, and that leaves C on the other end.

What lugs?

I'm looking for a cam sensor resistance value, but I can't find one. The only thing I see is if the voltage at BA12 never changes from very low, there's either a problem with that circuit or the sensor is bad. It's not unheard of for the cam sensor wiring to get rubbed through.

BA12 (or just A12) you can find in this pic.

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WHITE WHINE - 1992 SSE Supercharged 236.26 ci (.040 Over) 15.090 at 90.2 MPH on old engine w/ slipping trans & melted O2 sensor - Gen 3 M62 and matching TB, Gen 2 Pully, Zillamotorsports Ported LIM, YT 1.72 Roller Rockers, SII FPR & Injectors, Hypertech Thermomaster chip w/ 160 Thermo, TransGo Shift Kit, Infinity/Pioneer Speakers & a 10" Alpine Type R Sub, all the watts, 140 amp Alternator, Ricepipe CAI w/ heatshield, Pilot Angel Eye Foglights, Clear Corners, '02 17" Chrome Bent 5's, Magnaflow F-Body Muffler and Hi-flo Cat, Ceramic Coated Ported Exhaust Manifolds, Fan Override, Monroe Reflex struts, red calipers
2009 G8 GT - Sport Red Metallic, loaded, SOLO Axlebacks, Rotofab Intake, Tuned, autodim mirror, removed intake manifold cover, HSV GTS triple gauge pod, two tone red-hot shifter and HSV SuperSport steering wheel, GXP rear sway bar and diffuser, 3.45 diff and various Camaro suspension bits, LED Taillights

Awesome thank you..

I meant plugs not lugs hahaha sorry but i dont that anymore.

_________________

2001 SSEi Bumbles
Angel Eyes ~ Cleared Corners ~ Tinted Tails ~ Intense FWI ~ 20% Tint ~ 180 Drilled T-Stat ~ GXP Brake & Suspension Upgrade ~ Alternator Rewire ~ Intense Shift Kit ~ Headers ~ Tr 6's

1992 Bonneville SSEi (Sold)
Fan over ride~NGK Tr 55's~180 Drilled t-stat~Clear Corners~Angel Eyes~Tinted Tails~Magnaflow Cat

Ah. It can help to take them out.

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WHITE WHINE - 1992 SSE Supercharged 236.26 ci (.040 Over) 15.090 at 90.2 MPH on old engine w/ slipping trans & melted O2 sensor - Gen 3 M62 and matching TB, Gen 2 Pully, Zillamotorsports Ported LIM, YT 1.72 Roller Rockers, SII FPR & Injectors, Hypertech Thermomaster chip w/ 160 Thermo, TransGo Shift Kit, Infinity/Pioneer Speakers & a 10" Alpine Type R Sub, all the watts, 140 amp Alternator, Ricepipe CAI w/ heatshield, Pilot Angel Eye Foglights, Clear Corners, '02 17" Chrome Bent 5's, Magnaflow F-Body Muffler and Hi-flo Cat, Ceramic Coated Ported Exhaust Manifolds, Fan Override, Monroe Reflex struts, red calipers
2009 G8 GT - Sport Red Metallic, loaded, SOLO Axlebacks, Rotofab Intake, Tuned, autodim mirror, removed intake manifold cover, HSV GTS triple gauge pod, two tone red-hot shifter and HSV SuperSport steering wheel, GXP rear sway bar and diffuser, 3.45 diff and various Camaro suspension bits, LED Taillights

I put the new sensor in and still gettin the SES code. I checked the voltage at the connector and that was fine then i check the voltage at the PCM and that was fine to but when its says on the pic above to let car idle for 1 minute and check voltage at BA12. Does the car have to be running when im looking for the constant voltage cause with its unpluged it will not start or do i start in and then unplug it? also i want to make sure im check the correct plug at the pcm im test the middle plug as if your lookin at in still up in the dash. Also how can i test my ignition module?

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2001 SSEi Bumbles
Angel Eyes ~ Cleared Corners ~ Tinted Tails ~ Intense FWI ~ 20% Tint ~ 180 Drilled T-Stat ~ GXP Brake & Suspension Upgrade ~ Alternator Rewire ~ Intense Shift Kit ~ Headers ~ Tr 6's

1992 Bonneville SSEi (Sold)
Fan over ride~NGK Tr 55's~180 Drilled t-stat~Clear Corners~Angel Eyes~Tinted Tails~Magnaflow Cat

I believe it needs to be running, with the connector plugged in. You'll have to find a way to check the voltage with it plugged in and running. Splice in some extra wire, probe it (stick it with a needle) then repair it... something.

It is the middle one.

I don't see how to test the ICM in my manual.

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WHITE WHINE - 1992 SSE Supercharged 236.26 ci (.040 Over) 15.090 at 90.2 MPH on old engine w/ slipping trans & melted O2 sensor - Gen 3 M62 and matching TB, Gen 2 Pully, Zillamotorsports Ported LIM, YT 1.72 Roller Rockers, SII FPR & Injectors, Hypertech Thermomaster chip w/ 160 Thermo, TransGo Shift Kit, Infinity/Pioneer Speakers & a 10" Alpine Type R Sub, all the watts, 140 amp Alternator, Ricepipe CAI w/ heatshield, Pilot Angel Eye Foglights, Clear Corners, '02 17" Chrome Bent 5's, Magnaflow F-Body Muffler and Hi-flo Cat, Ceramic Coated Ported Exhaust Manifolds, Fan Override, Monroe Reflex struts, red calipers
2009 G8 GT - Sport Red Metallic, loaded, SOLO Axlebacks, Rotofab Intake, Tuned, autodim mirror, removed intake manifold cover, HSV GTS triple gauge pod, two tone red-hot shifter and HSV SuperSport steering wheel, GXP rear sway bar and diffuser, 3.45 diff and various Camaro suspension bits, LED Taillights

The next place to check is the ICM connector. The cam signal is not used there, but it is routed throught the ICM.

I went out today and grabbed a ICM from the junk yard. Just to test it and see what would happend if i replaced it. I was wondering how would I go about getting a new PCM if i needed one? Can I just take it from anther car?

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2001 SSEi Bumbles
Angel Eyes ~ Cleared Corners ~ Tinted Tails ~ Intense FWI ~ 20% Tint ~ 180 Drilled T-Stat ~ GXP Brake & Suspension Upgrade ~ Alternator Rewire ~ Intense Shift Kit ~ Headers ~ Tr 6's

1992 Bonneville SSEi (Sold)
Fan over ride~NGK Tr 55's~180 Drilled t-stat~Clear Corners~Angel Eyes~Tinted Tails~Magnaflow Cat

Just get one from another car, the junkyard should be able to tell you what year & makes will work. There's a smaller chip (mem/cal?) that you'll need to swap from your PCM to the new one. I'd grab the ICM wiring harness while your there.

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2006 Chevy Monte Carlo SS